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What's Wrong With the 2013 Defense?

What's Wrong With the 2013 Defense?

  • Talent / Players

    Votes: 29 11.8%
  • Scheme / Coaching

    Votes: 127 51.8%
  • Both are substandard

    Votes: 71 29.0%
  • Neither - B1G offenses are unstoppable

    Votes: 10 4.1%
  • I don't care - just fire Fickell!

    Votes: 8 3.3%

  • Total voters
    245
Ok I guess youre inching closer to going full retard. You mentioned Bryant's stats from last season, and I provided you with the pass defense ranking for last year, which was 76th. I didn't put this seasons struggles on Christian, I specifically mentioned the 2 big games he played in, wisky and cal, and neither game was stellar by our defense specifically by our DBs. I'm not trying to put everything on Bryant, but you keep blindly defending him like he as our best DB. His loss was felt more as a leader than it was in pass coverage, which was not his strong suit. He was stronger against the run.

I referred to Bryant's stats from last year b/c the dude sat out most of this year, genius. While I provided some tangible examples of when Bryant actually made plays to win game, you keep mouthing on about how "he's one of our biggest liabilities" without providing one supporting example, and try to pass on the team's overall struggles in pass defense as an intelligent response. Keep on repeating something without providing one iota of proof doesn't make you right and certainly doesn't fit with the general level of discussion at BP.
 
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I referred to Bryant's stats from last year b/c the dude sat out most of this year, genius. While I provided some tangible examples of when Bryant actually made plays to win game, you keep mouthing on about how "he's one of our biggest liabilities" without providing one supporting example, and try to pass on the team's overall struggles in pass defense as an intelligent response. Keep on repeating something without providing one iota of proof doesn't make you right and certainly doesn't fit with the general level of discussion at BP.


Ok so providing one play makes your point valid got it. Yet you can look at numerous posts throughout this thread and clearly see people's frustrations with Bryant's play in pass coverage. But yes, the one play you mentioned against Cal proves that without Bryant, our pass defense would be best in the nation... Got it tiger. You certainly upped level of discussion here
Look in CB's thread pages 27-29 on BP posters being frustrated by his play
 
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LordJeff convinced me that there is a dearth of experience and depth in the back 7 due to transfers, injuries, and busts. So that is a definite problem that has to solved by recruiting and coaching.

When we talk about scheme, the preferred pass defense involved rushing 3 or 4 and dropping 7 or 8. They played a pretty soft zone most of the time with LB's taking a normal drop and the safeties taking a fairly deep drop - presumably to keep everything in front of them and to keep from getting burned. This created a void 10-20 yards downfield. If an opposing QB could drop it in there over the LB's, it was money. Rarely did I see a LB or DB read the QB or the routes well and break on the ball. The more common result was the LB's covering no one and the 4 DB's covering two guys deep - which is why enemy recievers were catching the ball in the void with no one within 10-15 yards of them. In addition, we did not see an improvement in the back 7 to cover and react to the ball as the season went along - which would indicate a lack of ability or ineffective coaching. In the D staff's favor, they had won a ton of games with this approach, so one can see why they would stick with what they had been doing, but there was plenty of indication that a weak pass defense was going to bite them on the butt at some point, so the question is why couldn't they show some marginal improvement?

Also with scheme, you have to consider what is going on with the offense. They score points - and I don't care what anyone says, that affects the attitude of the defense. If you know that you can or can't give up 20 or 30 points, that affects how determined you are to keep people out of the endzone. Ohio State punts quickly or scores quickly, which increases the amount of time the defense spends on the field. A tired defense is a less effective defense, unless there is quality depth everywhere - which Ohio State doesn't have. On Langford's game winning run up the middle, I saw a worn out Buckeye defense. Herman had the choice of saddling up Hyde and riding him to the end - which would have rested a tired defense. Instead, the Bucks were in 2nd and 10 a lot after incomplete passes on 1st down - and that led to 3rd and short to medium which was exactly where Sparty wanted us. So the offense has affected the defense all year, and especially didn't help it out in the last game.

Put all the bold letter words together, and that is the problem with the defense. But which is more important than the other, and how each should be addressed, is a matter for the man making all the money to decide. I gotta believe this will get fixed. I just hope it is fixed by next September. :biggrin2:
 
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To me that kinda defeats the "things were OK under Fickell/Heacock in 2011, before Withers and Coombs showed up" argument. Fickell's in the same boat as those guys at the moment. Maybe the relative strengths and weaknesses are different now than they were then, but the overall results are in the same class of unacceptability.

I'm gonna spot them a FG or 2 in 2011 due to TOP handicap. (Is it even 3 and out if 2 downs are Bauserman into the bleachers?)
 
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Ok so providing one play makes your point valid got it. Yet you can look at numerous posts throughout this thread and clearly see people's frustrations with Bryant's play in pass coverage. But yes, the one play you mentioned against Cal proves that without Bryant, our pass defense would be best in the nation... Got it tiger. You certainly upped level of discussion here
Look in CB's thread pages 27-29 on BP posters being frustrated by his play

I think as Buckeye fans, a lot of us are in shock for plenty of reasons. Besides the obvious fact of losing, the streak is over, No NC, No Big ten championship, etc. Trying to find a reason for this loss, I can't keep help but point the finger at basically everyone on the defensive staff with the exception of Mike Vrabel. Without using any inside information, Im just using my playing knowledge of the game and my eyes as a spectator.

As noted by a previous post, we will have an opponent scoring average of 20 ppg if Clemson scores a fg at the bowl game, and I think that is very likely. When did these defensive woes start? Right after Tattoogate, when Luke Fickell was given more of a leadership/coordinator role in our program, first as an interim coach and then as Co-Defensive coordinator. I know Luke is a fellow buckeye who has done a lot for this program and been integral in a lot of our great players development in the last decade, but as soon as he was given more responsibility, the product on the field started to instantly suffer. Translate this situation to a regular work setting; If you are apart of an excelling work group with a medium level of responsibility and then your boss promotes to lead the group, and it instantly begins to suffer, I don't think your employer will keep you group lead for too long. If your not entirely fired, you will most definitely be demoted (Ive seen it happen plenty of times).

People can blame the players missing tackles, taking wrong angles, etc, but these problems have been going on since 2011. At what point do the coaches take responsibility for these mistakes especially when they happen week after week? Aren't' they supposed to coach up these players? We are a top 10 program historically with access to the best recruits in the country and the some of the best facilities. Even with the transfers, injuries, etc. , we should still have the depth to prevent horrible offenses with less talent from having their career days. To me this is not a personnel problem, especially with our recent recruiting. In the early to mid 2000s, we were consistently taking 3 star recuits like Michael and Malcolm Jenkins, AJ Hawk, James Laurenitis (spelling lol), etc. and turning them into All-Americans and first round picks, sometimes by the end of their sophomore year. Now we barely get a 5 star lb (curtis Grant) to play halfway consistent in his Junior year. You can say, " well maybe the staff misevaluated talent?". Again, that is part of your job, the most important part outside of getting the kid to commit and coaching him. Whose fault is it that you targeting the wrong prospects? Especially three classes in a row. If I was a hiring manager at a firm, and brought in three rounds of sub par associates, the partner would hand me a pink slip fast.

Even their personnel decisions puzzled me. With the way Corey Pitt Brown was playing could it of really hurt to put Von Bell in there at safety? I know you might want to give the nod to a senior over a true freshman, but he was not producing…at all. Im positive Von couldn't have done any worse especially when he'll most likely start for the next 2-3 years.

In conclusion, I see a huge correlation between when Luke Fickell was handed major responsibility and the decline of our defense. Whether coincidence or not, once he was in the spotlight, everything he was charge of started to go to [Mark May].Some people are just better micro managers than macro. Every level with the exception of our D-line (Vrabel is doing his job more than adequately in my opinion) has regressed. Most alarming is the secondary (pointing fingers at Withers and Combs) because the 4 and 5 star talent is there. IMO, our defensive is sub-par mostly due to the coaches.
 
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I think as Buckeye fans, a lot of us are in shock for plenty of reasons. Besides the obvious fact of losing, the streak is over, No NC, No Big ten championship, etc. Trying to find a reason for this loss, I can't keep help but point the finger at basically everyone on the defensive staff with the exception of Mike Vrabel. Without using any inside information, Im just using my playing knowledge of the game and my eyes as a spectator. As noted by a previous post, we will have an opponent scoring average of 20 ppg if Clemson scores a fg at the bowl game, and I think that is very likely. When did these defensive woes start? Right after Tattoogate, when Luke Fickell was given more of a leadership/coordinator role in our program, first as an interim coach and then as Co-Defensive coordinator. I know Luke is a fellow buckeye who has done a lot for this program and been integral in a lot of our great players development in the last decade, but as soon as he was given more responsibility, the product on the field started to instantly suffer. Translate this situation to a regular work setting; If you are apart of an excelling work group with a medium level of responsibility and then your boss promotes to lead the group, and it instantly begins to suffer, I don't think your employer will keep you group lead for too long. If your not entirely fired, you will most definitely be demoted (Ive seen it happen plenty of times). People can blame the players missing tackles, taking wrong angles, etc, but these problems have been going on since 2011. At what point do the coaches take responsibility for these mistakes especially when they happen week after week? Aren't' they supposed to coach up these players? We are a top 10 program historically with access to the best recruits in the country and the some of the best facilities. Even with the transfers, injuries, etc. , we should still have the depth to prevent horrible offenses with less talent from having their career days. To me this is not a personnel problem, especially with our recent recruiting. In the early to mid 2000s, we were consistently taking 3 star recuits like Michael and Malcolm Jenkins, AJ Hawk, James Laurenitis (spelling lol), etc. and turning them into All-Americans and first round picks, sometimes by the end of their sophomore year. Now we barely get a 5 star lb (curtis Grant) to play halfway consistent in his Junior year. You can say, " well maybe the staff misevaluated talent?". Again, that is part of your job, the most important part outside of getting the kid to commit and coaching him. Whose fault is it that you targeting the wrong prospects? Especially three classes in a row. If I was a hiring manager at a firm, and brought in three rounds of sub par associates, the partner would hand me a pink slip fast. Even their personnel decisions puzzled me. With the way Corey Pitt Brown was playing could it of really hurt to put Von Bell in there at safety? I know you might want to give the nod to a senior over a true freshman, but he was not producing…at all. Im positive Von couldn't have done any worse especially when he'll most likely start for the next 2-3 years.
In conclusion, I see a huge correlation between when Luke Fickell was handed major responsibility and the decline of our defense. Whether coincidence or not, once he was in the spotlight, everything he was charge of started to go to [Mark May].Some people are just better micro managers than macro. Every level with the exception of our D-line (Vrabel is doing his job more than adequately in my opinion) has regressed. Most alarming is the secondary (pointing fingers at Withers and Combs) because the 4 and 5 star talent is there. IMO, our defensive is sub-par mostly due to the coaches.
WALL OF TEXT......:hoke:
 
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And yet the defense has already (through seven games) given up 8 plays of 30+ yards (all passes), including 4 plays of 60+ yards, with a long of 85 yards.

By comparison, the 2010 defense (in thirteen games) gave up only 9 plays of 30+ yards, with a long of 42 yards.
Through thirteen games, the 2013 defense has surrendered 19 plays of 30+ yards, broken down as follows:

30-39: 9 plays (5 pass, 4 rush)
40-49: 3 plays (3 pass)
50-59: 0 plays
60-69: 4 plays (4 pass)
70-79: 1 play (1 pass)
80-89: 2 plays (2 pass)
 
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I think as Buckeye fans, a lot of us are in shock for plenty of reasons. Besides the obvious fact of losing, the streak is over, No NC, No Big ten championship, etc. Trying to find a reason for this loss, I can't keep help but point the finger at basically everyone on the defensive staff with the exception of Mike Vrabel. Without using any inside information, Im just using my playing knowledge of the game and my eyes as a spectator.

As noted by a previous post, we will have an opponent scoring average of 20 ppg if Clemson scores a fg at the bowl game, and I think that is very likely. When did these defensive woes start? Right after Tattoogate, when Luke Fickell was given more of a leadership/coordinator role in our program, first as an interim coach and then as Co-Defensive coordinator. I know Luke is a fellow buckeye who has done a lot for this program and been integral in a lot of our great players development in the last decade, but as soon as he was given more responsibility, the product on the field started to instantly suffer. Translate this situation to a regular work setting; If you are apart of an excelling work group with a medium level of responsibility and then your boss promotes to lead the group, and it instantly begins to suffer, I don't think your employer will keep you group lead for too long. If your not entirely fired, you will most definitely be demoted (Ive seen it happen plenty of times).

People can blame the players missing tackles, taking wrong angles, etc, but these problems have been going on since 2011. At what point do the coaches take responsibility for these mistakes especially when they happen week after week? Aren't' they supposed to coach up these players? We are a top 10 program historically with access to the best recruits in the country and the some of the best facilities. Even with the transfers, injuries, etc. , we should still have the depth to prevent horrible offenses with less talent from having their career days. To me this is not a personnel problem, especially with our recent recruiting. In the early to mid 2000s, we were consistently taking 3 star recuits like Michael and Malcolm Jenkins, AJ Hawk, James Laurenitis (spelling lol), etc. and turning them into All-Americans and first round picks, sometimes by the end of their sophomore year. Now we barely get a 5 star lb (curtis Grant) to play halfway consistent in his Junior year. You can say, " well maybe the staff misevaluated talent?". Again, that is part of your job, the most important part outside of getting the kid to commit and coaching him. Whose fault is it that you targeting the wrong prospects? Especially three classes in a row. If I was a hiring manager at a firm, and brought in three rounds of sub par associates, the partner would hand me a pink slip fast.

Even their personnel decisions puzzled me. With the way Corey Pitt Brown was playing could it of really hurt to put Von Bell in there at safety? I know you might want to give the nod to a senior over a true freshman, but he was not producing…at all. Im positive Von couldn't have done any worse especially when he'll most likely start for the next 2-3 years.

In conclusion, I see a huge correlation between when Luke Fickell was handed major responsibility and the decline of our defense. Whether coincidence or not, once he was in the spotlight, everything he was charge of started to go to [Mark May].Some people are just better micro managers than macro. Every level with the exception of our D-line (Vrabel is doing his job more than adequately in my opinion) has regressed. Most alarming is the secondary (pointing fingers at Withers and Combs) because the 4 and 5 star talent is there. IMO, our defensive is sub-par mostly due to the coaches.

Paragraphs are your friend. :lol:
 
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