QB Todd Boeckman (official thread)

[Buckskin86]

Pro day: The "real" times
OK, we've got a pretty good handle on the 40 times from pro day today. The times I'm going to list here are a range, where most of the 29 teams had the players....it doesn't mean some teams didn't have a guy a few ticks faster (or slower), but these are the best, most reliable ranges we can give you:

TODD BOECKMAN: 4.78 to 4.82. The fastest anyone had was a 4.76, the slowest a 4.88. He's in fine shape for a pocket-passer, he's not glacial.

Pro day: The "real" times (Blogging the Buckeyes)

 

[mercer_buckeye]

Boeckman is ranked where is for a reason. He has no pocket presence, a penchant for the deep ball (which he doesn't throw that well), panics under pressure, and has an average release. He's just barely draftable on most days and maybe, maybe, worth a fourth on his best. Pat White and Graham Harrell are, at the very least, twice the prospects Boeckman is. I don't think you understand what makes a decent pro prospect if you really think Boeckman is as deserving as you imply. The fact that this is a bad year for quarterbacks is an even further indictment of his ability.

Let me guess you were a quarterback in high school.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmPu5NvXQlU]YouTube - Banned TV: Laughing Host Returns![/ame]

The sad part is I somewhat agree with you but you went way too far.

 

[generaladm]

Boeckman is ranked where is for a reason. He has no pocket presence, a penchant for the deep ball (which he doesn't throw that well), panics under pressure, and has an average release. He's just barely draftable on most days and maybe, maybe, worth a fourth on his best. Pat White and Graham Harrell are, at the very least, twice the prospects Boeckman is. I don't think you understand what makes a decent pro prospect if you really think Boeckman is as deserving as you imply. The fact that this is a bad year for quarterbacks is an even further indictment of his ability.

Well, here's some perspective on the pocket presence: Over Boeckman's career since 2007 (16 games as a starter, 5 in limited action) he was sacked 26 times (1.23 per game). Over Terelle Pryor's career (9 games as a starter, 4 in limited action), he was sacked 21 times (1.61 per game). I'm sure no one would argue that TB had better pocket presence than TP, yet the numbers say TP was easier to sack, with mostly the same O-line (TB's sack went down to 1.0 per game in 08), TP also played more snaps in games he was not the starter than TB, respectively.

And, Todd throws a very nice deep ball, when he has time, and his WRs make the plays they should. By comparison, Carson Palmer is a QB who has built a reputation as an elite NFL QB as a deep ball passer, but when he has no protection, and his WRs aren't getting it done, his team is in the cellar. Just goes to show how important O-line play is in the game of football.

If you think that Pat White is going to get a chance to play QB in the NFL, then that's all that needs to be said.

 

[Viking]

Dual-threat quarterbacks are almost always sacked more, so I'm not sure what your point is with that statistic. I mean Pryor held onto the ball so long at times after breaking the pocket that I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle him. Poise is great, but you've got to know there's going to be a next play, and play after that. Now I'm not saying the offensive line is/was great, but that doesn't change what is what about Boeckman. Anytime you lose your job to a freshman, especially as a collegiate quarterback, which has probably one of the higher learning curves in the game, that doesn't bode well. It happened to King Dunlap I think, an Auburn offensive tackle who was previously regarded as a first day pick, much like Boeckman, primarily for his physical abilities. He was named to Outland Trophy pre-season watch list. He lost his spot to a froshie and was drafted in the seventh round, which is where we are looking at Boeckman.

Don't get me wrong, if Boeckman had kept his starting job this might be an entirely different story, but as it is he's what, 25, 26, with one year of starting experience in which he was good, but not great. He showed some good things, but an equal number of bad things and was never really given the chance to correct those things. I will root for Boeckman wherever he goes in the NFL. He seems to have outstanding character and he should represent the Buckeyes well, but at the same time, I am a realist. When the draft is involved I don't pull punches. Boeckman is not a good prospect. Plenty of guys don't get invited to the combine, it's not really a big deal.

As for Pat White, God knows I was with you for a long time, but it has been looking more and more like he will get a chance, and honestly, after the way he closed out the season, I don't see why not. He was great against North Carolina, made more than a few NFL throws (the skinny post touchdown in particular was very impressive), and has shown improvement through all four years. He's got fantastic athleticism and his arm isn't quite as bad as it's made out to be. He's not unlike Troy Smith in that aspect, and although I think Troy has a significantly superior arm that fact that both are getting sold short is a commonality in my eyes. He's made it clear he's committed to being a quarterback first but is willing to move around to help whatever team drafts him in any way possible. I would sure as hell take him long before I took Boeckman if I were a GM.

 

[mercer_buckeye]

Dual-threat quarterbacks are almost always sacked more, so I'm not sure what your point is with that statistic. I mean Pryor held onto the ball so long at times after breaking the pocket that I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle him. Poise is great, but you've got to know there's going to be a next play, and play after that. Now I'm not saying the offensive line is/was great, but that doesn't change what is what about Boeckman. Anytime you lose your job to a freshman, especially as a collegiate quarterback, which has probably one of the higher learning curves in the game, that doesn't bode well. It happened to King Dunlap I think, an Auburn offensive tackle who was previously regarded as a first day pick, much like Boeckman, primarily for his physical abilities. He was named to Outland Trophy pre-season watch list. He lost his spot to a froshie and was drafted in the seventh round, which is where we are looking at Boeckman.

Boeckman is not a good prospect.

So Todd is a bad prospect because he lost his starting job? It's a question of build and talent not playing time.

 

[Viking]

So Todd is a bad prospect because he lost his starting job? It's a question of build and talent not playing time.

In a word, yes. Playing time a huge factor for quarterbacks. Every other position, not so much (two years is fine, just to prove you're not a one year wonder), but quarterbacks? It's one of the biggest reasons people worry about Mark Sanchez. It's often cited when comparing Manning and Leaf. It raised a big red flag regarding Bradford when he was being critiqued before deciding to go back to school. It's one of the reasons draftniks and GMs alike are so wary of early declarees at quarterback. The only junior to pan out in recent history is Ben Roethlisberger, who had a redshirt year, and if you want to stretch things, Michael Vick. Number of starts is big, and if you don't know that or try to downplay that... it makes me question your perspective.

 

[BB73]

In a word, yes. Playing time a huge factor for quarterbacks. Every other position, not so much (two years is fine, just to prove you're not a one year wonder), but quarterbacks? It's one of the biggest reasons people worry about Mark Sanchez. It's often cited when comparing Manning and Leaf. It raised a big red flag regarding Bradford when he was being critiqued before deciding to go back to school. It's one of the reasons draftniks and GMs alike are so wary of early declarees at quarterback. The only junior to pan out in recent history is Ben Roethlisberger, who had a redshirt year, and if you want to stretch things, Michael Vick. Number of starts is big, and if you don't know that or try to downplay that... it makes me question your perspective.

Matt Cassel says hello.

 

[Viking]

Matt Cassel says hello.

So one guy in the history of the NFL had done okay in one season in which he had a top 5 line, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, and good running game, with several years sitting on the bench learning the system for one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL. Not the exception that proves the rule, but you can't seriously point to Matt Cassel every time a guy with no playing experience tries to make it in the NFL.

 

[jwinslow]

Just to review, were you trying to pass off Graham Harrell as a good NFL prospect at QB?

 

[BB73]

Just messin' with you because you were so serious.

But Kurt Warner's another example.

 

[generaladm]

Dual-threat quarterbacks are almost always sacked more, so I'm not sure what your point is with that statistic.

2008 sacks:
Terelle Pryor:21
Pat White: 16
Tim Tebow: 15
Kodi Burns: 7
Josh Nesbitt: 12
Zac Robinson: 10

Not sure where you're getting that idea from, but the point I was making is that you were criticizing TB for having poor pocket presence, when that is a moot point if there is no pocket on a regular basis. It is perfectly reasonable to compare TB and TP's numbers, since they played with mostly the same personnel. TP is in on a completely different plane than TB in regards of mobility and escapability, yet he fared no better in terms of dealing with pocket pressure, and not favorably compared to dual threat QBs in other BCS programs. The bottom line is, if there are defenders coming untouched from the blind side on a regular basis, the QB is toast. We saw it cost TB dearly in the LSU and USC games, and we saw it with TP on many occasions. It's my opinion that TB's demotion had more to do with the inability of the line to protect him, than his ability. I'm not saying that Todd didn't have issues with holding the ball too long, or otherwise, but on a team where QB protection is a glaring weakness, a moblie QB is almost a necessity. In the games where TB came on in relief, he performed very well.

Don't get me wrong, if Boeckman had kept his starting job this might be an entirely different story, but as it is he's what, 25, 26, with one year of starting experience in which he was good, but not great. He showed some good things, but an equal number of bad things and was never really given the chance to correct those things. I will root for Boeckman wherever he goes in the NFL. He seems to have outstanding character and he should represent the Buckeyes well, but at the same time, I am a realist. When the draft is involved I don't pull punches. Boeckman is not a good prospect. Plenty of guys don't get invited to the combine, it's not really a big deal.

As for Pat White, God knows I was with you for a long time, but it has been looking more and more like he will get a chance, and honestly, after the way he closed out the season, I don't see why not. He was great against North Carolina, made more than a few NFL throws (the skinny post touchdown in particular was very impressive), and has shown improvement through all four years. He's got fantastic athleticism and his arm isn't quite as bad as it's made out to be. He's not unlike Troy Smith in that aspect, and although I think Troy has a significantly superior arm that fact that both are getting sold short is a commonality in my eyes. He's made it clear he's committed to being a quarterback first but is willing to move around to help whatever team drafts him in any way possible. I would sure as hell take him long before I took Boeckman if I were a GM.

Todd may have been good, but not great, but that was enough to get his team to the BCS championship game. Granted, he had a few bad games to end that season, but, again, at least some of that was due to circumstances out of his control. If you make a 5 step drop, and get hammered before you can get your arm cocked, there's not much you could have done differently. I don't expect any team to look at TB as a starter, but he would certainly be attractive to a team that is looking for a backup with the potential to take over in 2-3 years. NFL teams seem to value a set of physical measurables and ability to learn a system, which TB has, over other things. I'm glad you will be pulling for him, I will as well, and in a realistic way.

I agree that White improved greatly as a passer over the last half of the season or so, but I still don't think that's enough to make GMs give him a chance. Troy had an entire senoir season that was (with the exception of one game) a Heisman highlight reel. White's passing skill was still being questioned going in to his last bowl game. I think he's a fantastic athlete, and would like to see him get a shot a QB, but I think his measurables will work against him, and he will end up like Randle-El or Hines Ward, a player who can get looks at different positions, but not as a full time QB.

 

[billmac91]

In a word, yes. Playing time a huge factor for quarterbacks. Every other position, not so much (two years is fine, just to prove you're not a one year wonder), but quarterbacks? It's one of the biggest reasons people worry about Mark Sanchez. It's often cited when comparing Manning and Leaf. It raised a big red flag regarding Bradford when he was being critiqued before deciding to go back to school. It's one of the reasons draftniks and GMs alike are so wary of early declarees at quarterback. The only junior to pan out in recent history is Ben Roethlisberger, who had a redshirt year, and if you want to stretch things, Michael Vick. Number of starts is big, and if you don't know that or try to downplay that... it makes me question your perspective.

Not for a late round pick or undrafted QB. Matt Guitterez is another guy that comes to mind. Brad Johnson backed up Casey Weldon. Matt Flynn was drafted even though Ryan Perrileaux took a lot of snaps for him. Current Ravens QB Joe Flacco couldn't beat out Tyler Palko at Pitt and transferred to Delaware. I wonder what Tyler is up to now? Ben Roethlisberger couldn't start in High School until the coaches son left, leaving Ben 1 year to prove himself as a QB. John Cooper only offered Ben as a TE.

The point is, there are a million stories of QB's being unproductive, or not playing at all, to suceed at another level. I have zero doubt, with Todd's height and arm strength, that he could be a capable 3rd stringer with the ability to become a second stringer after a few years in the league. Hell, he lead the Big 10 in efficiency after his junior season. Unfortunately the deck was stacked against Todd last year, including an ass-beating at the hands of USC. Not to mention the offense looked putrid against YSU. I'm still not sure how much of that was Todd, and how much of that was the offense. Even on Todd's touchdown throws against YSU, he was fitting the ball in tight windows because nothing was easy.....

I think it's a bit unfair to Todd to label him incapable of playing at the next level. College and NFL are completely different beasts, and Terrelle gave OSU a better chance to win games. Especially with our O-line. Add in the fact that our season was essentially lost as far as National Titles go after the USC game, and it just makes sense to develop your freshman, stud QB. And on top of all this, I don't think anyone is arguing Todd will become a pro-bowler and 10 year starter in the NFL. The question is can he catch on in the league and make a career for himself?? I think the answer is yes.

The fact that Todd is in Chicago now meeting with the Bears, should tell you he will at the very least be a undrafted free agent...he might even sneak into the 6th or seventh round.

 

[Viking]

A few things:

First, jwinslow, yes, I like Graham Harrell as a mid day two pick in this draft (think round four or so). Things might have been different in another draft, and I know he's throwing to Crabtree (and Detron Lewis, who looks good, and Eric Morris, who's a great college player, and playing behind a beastly line), but I like him a lot more than any of the previous Tech quarterbacks. He reminds me of Tom Brady coming out physically, so if he could improve to the same extent physically (unlikely, which is one of the reasons I don't value him so highly) then the trust you have in his mental abilities makes him worth it. So in review, not good, but better than Boeckman.

As for the dual threat argument, generally those guys believe they can do something and they try things with their feet that result in sacks, where guys like Boeckman throw it away. Of your examples, Nesbitt only threw 123 passes and ran a triple option offense, so its not like that number is really great (to take the opposite end of the spectrum, Harrell was sacked 14 times with 626 attempts; a lot of that is the system, but the point remains). Also see:

Robert Griffin: 28 sacks
Jake Locker: 10 sacks in 93 passing attempts
Tyrod Taylor: 20 sacks in 193 attempts
Mike Kafka: 7 sacks in 46 attempts

In that light Boeckman's 8 in 93 really isn't so good. It is closer to the 1 in 10 of many running quarterbacks than the 1 in 20 that many of the top pocket passers post. Consider Matt Stafford and Mark Sanchez, the prototypical guys that Boeckman technically belongs with.

Bomar: 19/436 = 0.04
Cantwell: 20/377 = 0.05
Freeman: 15/382 = 0.04
Sanchez: 17/366 = 0.05
Stafford: 17/383 = 0.04

Here are guys who dropped back almost four times as much, yet were sacked only half as much.

Now consider:

Brian Hoyer: 29/376 =.08
Todd Boeckman: 8/93 = 0.09

Boeckman's 18/299 of a year ago is better, hovering at 0.06, but if anything that shows a regression from last year.

This is getting a bit off track, however, and I'm not really a stats guy. I put faith in what I can see, and I can tell you Boeckman has mental flaws that look uncorrectable on tape.

Billmac, you premise you post by saying not for a late round pick or undrafted guy. Of course! That's why they are late rounders or undrafted. Todd is great as a seventh rounder. He costs almost nothing and can cut the moment you need another running back or you realize he's got serious , unworkable issues. Or maybe he sticks and becomes the next Derek Anderson. The point is that his stock is where its at for a reason, which was my original point: that guys like Cantwell are better prospects than Boeckman, despite suggestions that it was ridiculous they got combine invites over a player like Boeckman.

Like I said, I'll root for him in the league. I'd love to see him prove me wrong, but I pray to God my Bears don't use anything more than a compensatory seventh on him. Oh, and the Bears couldn't scout offense if their lives depended on it, so take it for what it's worth. Chris Williams over Brandon Albert, Earl Bennett who hasn't done anything and reportedly can't get off the line of scrimmage... our best receiver is a converted athlete and we tend to do most everything through free agency. Might as well be aiming for dart board and hoping.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

A few things:

First, jwinslow, yes, I like Graham Harrell as a mid day two pick in this draft (think round four or so). Things might have been different in another draft, and I know he's throwing to Crabtree (and Detron Lewis, who looks good, and Eric Morris, who's a great college player, and playing behind a beastly line), but I like him a lot more than any of the previous Tech quarterbacks. He reminds me of Tom Brady coming out physically, so if he could improve to the same extent physically (unlikely, which is one of the reasons I don't value him so highly) then the trust you have in his mental abilities makes him worth it.

Comparing his noodle arm to Brady is a disgrace, as much as I dislike Brady. Harrell can barely get the ball off of his shoulder.

Harrell won't do anything in the NFL. He's got AFL written all over him.

 

[Viking]

Comparing his noodle arm to Brady is a disgrace, as much as I dislike Brady. Harrell can barely get the ball off of his shoulder.

Harrell won't do anything in the NFL. He's got AFL written all over him.

Did you see Brady workout at the combine? He was tiny; pathetically small. Arm strength can improve; Smith (Troy) is a great example of that (as is Brady). As to your assertion, probably not, but if he's considered a mid-round prospect and Boeckman is barely draftable, what does that make Boeckman?