Holbrook to Retire (Merged)

[cincibuck]

Again, you haven't really answered my question as to why space should be made at a state's (any state's) flagship campus for mediocre high school students. Particularly when, as I've stated in other threads, they have numerous other options. Nobody has a "right" to be a Buckeye..

Phewww! can we say, elitist?
That is not the purpose of a state university. All Big 10 schools except Northwestern, are Land Grant colleges. They were established to provide college level education to all. Not every student in Ohio wants to go to OSU, but if they do, then as a land grant school OSU has a historical mission to accept them. This says nothing about keeping them.

When you allow a university to pick and choose who they will educate (as undergrads) you create a private school out of a public school. You also create, at the college level, many of the problems that weaken and cripple many of our inner city and rural school districts... those kids don't benefit from exposure to, and competition with, top tier students. Their schools don't get the same kind of per capita funding for students. They don't benefit from alum gifting to the same degree. They don't get the support from the state officials who focus on the "Star" school.

The point should be that all high school graduates who arrive at any one of the state's colleges should be adequately prepared to succeed and that meritocracy should then determine if they remain. That's a big problem that no one outside, and only a few inside, education wants to tackle. Beyond that, a degree from BGSU should represent nothing more and nothing less than one from OSU.

That was the point when Virginia (a state founded by minor aristocrats) was told it could not create a separate, but equal, womens military school to provide the same opportunity that VMI afforded men. It would be inheriently unequal to citizens who deserved the same opportunity. Sound familiar?

And finally, when you have a 3.9 GPA and 1300 SAT and you don't get into OSU and you watch Clyde Doufuss with his 2.5 and 700, but a 23 PPG, or Claudia Doufuss with her 3.2 and 900 and a non mainstream genetic code take her place, or Smedley Whitelock with his, 2.8 and 1100 and parents in the President Club all get in, aren't you just a bit pissed? And if they graduate, don't you sort of wonder if that barrier had any meaning in the first place? Do you want an Ohio State that looks, thinks and acts like Michigan?

If you want to be elite, then be elite the whole way, not where it's convienent. But, hell, even Yale doesn't do that. Nope, we'll have legacies so we don't piss off the wealthy and sports scholarships so we don't suck on the field and diversity so we don't piss off everyone else.

The taxpayer issue just doesn't wash. There's only so many kids that Ohio State can accomodate. Does being a California taxpayer automatically reserve a spot at Berkeley or UCLA for one's kid? Does being a Wisconsin taxpayer automatically reserve a spot in Madison for one's kid? Does being a Virginia taxpayer automatically reserve a spot in Charlottseville for one's kid?

Some pigs are more equal than other pigs? And yes, being a citizen of a state does entitle one to an opportunity to obtain the best education in the state. Colleges are not country clubs.

When I lived in Ohio, there was constant talk about attracting third-wave businesses to the state and about the state's well documented brain drain. If Ohio and her citizens are to have the type of flagship research university that makes a difference in these regards, who is going to fill that role? OU? Bowling Green? That overgrown boarding school in Oxford? No, :osu: is, but not if it's dumbed down to mediocrity!

Accepting all students does not dumb down a university. What a university does with the students it receives determines that. The brain drain you speak of is regional and has more to do with the fact that manufacturing has gone into steep decline throughout the region than the quality of Ohio State... and doesn't it say something about the quality of OSU when businesses outside the state seek out its graduates? If Ohio wants to attract third-wave it could have done a lot more investment in initiatives like the N. Carolina research triangle (and no, you don't have to have an elite undergrad school to be an elite research college)? If Ohio wants to be attractive to business they could improve the overall quality of all their schools, especially their inner city and rural schools, to produce a better prepared work force. If Ohio wants to attract more brains they could support the arts, promote heath care, create enterprize zones... the mind boggles on what this state could do if it wanted to.

PS. Whats Fredo(OH)? Is this the Parsons of the 21st century (Parsons of Iowa was an expensive private school that took and kept kids of the rich so that they could say they graduated from college)

 

[FKAGobucks877]

Seems to me if we could fix the problems with our elementary and high schools, a lot of this shit would be moot.

 

[tibor75]

Phewww! can we say, elitist?
That is not the purpose of a state university. All Big 10 schools except Northwestern, are Land Grant colleges. They were established to provide college level education to all. Not every student in Ohio wants to go to OSU, but if they do, then as a land grant school OSU has a historical mission to accept them. This says nothing about keeping them. )

It is elitist to say that C students don't belong at OSU?

Sorry, nobody has a right to attend OSU. That's just stupid thinking.

Here is wikipedia's definition of a land grant college. Sorry, but this definition has no modern meaning anymore. THank you, come again.

Land-grant universities (also called land-grant colleges or land grant institutions) are institutions of higher education in the United States which have been designated by Congress to receive the benefits of the Morrill Acts of 1862 and 1890.

The Morrill Acts funded educational institutions by granting federally-controlled land to the states. The mission of these institutions, as set forth in the 1862 Act, is to teach agriculture, military tactics, and the mechanic arts, not to the exclusion of classical studies, so that members of the working classes might obtain a practical college education.

I guess this means OSU should stop training pre-med students?

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Phewww! can we say, elitist?
That is not the purpose of a state university. All Big 10 schools except Northwestern, are Land Grant colleges. They were established to provide college level education to all. Not every student in Ohio wants to go to OSU, but if they do, then as a land grant school OSU has a historical mission to accept them. This says nothing about keeping them.

When you allow a university to pick and choose who they will educate (as undergrads) you create a private school out of a public school. You also create, at the college level, many of the problems that weaken and cripple many of our inner city and rural school districts... those kids don't benefit from exposure to, and competition with, top tier students. Their schools don't get the same kind of per capita funding for students. They don't benefit from alum gifting to the same degree. They don't get the support from the state officials who focus on the "Star" school.

The point should be that all high school graduates who arrive at any one of the state's colleges should be adequately prepared to succeed and that meritocracy should then determine if they remain. That's a big problem that no one outside, and only a few inside, education wants to tackle. Beyond that, a degree from BGSU should represent nothing more and nothing less than one from OSU.

That was the point when Virginia (a state founded by minor aristocrats) was told it could not create a separate, but equal, womens military school to provide the same opportunity that VMI afforded men. It would be inheriently unequal to citizens who deserved the same opportunity. Sound familiar?

And finally, when you have a 3.9 GPA and 1300 SAT and you don't get into OSU and you watch Clyde Doufuss with his 2.5 and 700, but a 23 PPG, or Claudia Doufuss with her 3.2 and 900 and a non mainstream genetic code take her place, or Smedley Whitelock with his, 2.8 and 1100 and parents in the President Club all get in, aren't you just a bit pissed? And if they graduate, don't you sort of wonder if that barrier had any meaning in the first place? Do you want an Ohio State that looks, thinks and acts like Michigan?

If you want to be elite, then be elite the whole way, not where it's convienent. But, hell, even Yale doesn't do that. Nope, we'll have legacies so we don't piss off the wealthy and sports scholarships so we don't suck on the field and diversity so we don't piss off everyone else.

Some pigs are more equal than other pigs? And yes, being a citizen of a state does entitle one to an opportunity to obtain the best education in the state. Colleges are not country clubs.


Accepting all students does not dumb down a university. What a university does with the students it receives determines that. The brain drain you speak of is regional and has more to do with the fact that manufacturing has gone into steep decline throughout the region than the quality of Ohio State... and doesn't it say something about the quality of OSU when businesses outside the state seek out its graduates? If Ohio wants to attract third-wave it could have done a lot more investment in initiatives like the N. Carolina research triangle (and no, you don't have to have an elite undergrad school to be an elite research college)? If Ohio wants to be attractive to business they could improve the overall quality of all their schools, especially their inner city and rural schools, to produce a better prepared work force. If Ohio wants to attract more brains they could support the arts, promote heath care, create enterprize zones... the mind boggles on what this state could do if it wanted to.

PS. Whats Fredo(OH)? Is this the Parsons of the 21st century (Parsons of Iowa was an expensive private school that took and kept kids of the rich so that they could say they graduated from college)

First of all being an elite university and an elitist university are not the same thing. I think Ohio State has done a good job holding the line in this regard. Only 25% of our students come from families with incomes over 100K, compare this with 38% as the average for highly selective public universities and 55% for Fredo(OH). Fredo(OH), by the way, is a nickname used in some Ohio State circles for Miami(OH); you know the older brother who, forced to watch his younger sibling take control, becomes consumed in his jealosy, bitterness and irrelevance.

You completely misunderstand the mission of a land-grant university, even though indirectly you make my point. There is absolutely nothing in the charter of a land-grant institution that mandates easy or open admissions. Wisconsin, Illinois, Purdue, Penn State, Cornell, UC Berkeley was until the functions were transferred to UC Davis (to name just a few off the top of my head) are all land-grant schools with highly selective admissions. The mission of a land-grant university is to first provide agricultural and engineering education, and second to provide extension services to the state. Also, all of the public universities in the Big Ten have selective admissions.

Again, Ohio State simply can not accomodate everybody. How big should the university be? 100,000 students? 150,000 students? And where's the money going to come from to build all of these dorms, eating halls, and classrooms for the masses? The state of Ohio? That's laughable. The fact of the matter, is that Ohio State has to pick and choose who can go there, as the state's flagship, research university why shouldn't it pick the best applicant pool that it can?

"a degree from BGSU should represent nothing more and nothing less than one from OSU."

It sounds as though you don't want any real university system at all for Ohio. You just want a bunch of indistinguishable, third-tier glorified community colleges. Guess what? Jim Rhodes tried it. It failed. The concept is dead forever.

Also, you've never addressed the issue of what happens to these mediocre high school students after Ohio State spits them out. Let them into Ohio State, and they're highly unlikely to ever recieve a degree. Channel them into more appropriate, less competitive institutions, and study after study have shown that they have a far higher likelihood of succeeding. In a system like California's, students are channeled into institutions relative to their abilities, and they're far more likely to end up with a bachelor's degree than the mediocre students who were let into Ohio State in the 60's and 70's, flunked out and cast aside. Or should we dumb down the classrooms too so Mongo's self-esteem is not damaged.

 

[FKAGobucks877]

I was a "mediocre" high school student...because I didn't give a shit about class, or homework, or anything else. I played sports, and carried a 2.5 GPA because that is what was required to stay eligible. I scored a 31 on the ACT, though, so I was easily admitted to tOSU, where I proceeded to flourish.

Rags-to-riches story? Not hardly. But here's the thing...the average student doesn't give two shits about research, nor does he/she deserve to be excluded from a public university because they either didn't try quite hard enough while in their adolescent years, or because they worked their ass off and just weren't quite smart enough. Equal opportunity, right? I'm not saying tOSU should take anyone and everyone, but, as you put it, there is a difference between and elitist school and an elite school. I have no desire for the OSU to compete with Ivy League schools...if you want Ivy League, then go there. And don't turn my beloved University into something it isn't.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

But here's the thing...the average student doesn't give two shits about research, nor does he/she deserve to be excluded from a public university because they either didn't try quite hard enough while in their adolescent years, or because they worked their ass off and just weren't quite smart enough.

You're absolutely right. An average student does not deserve to be excluded from a public university. They, however, have no god-given, inalienable right to a spot at the state's flagship university. That is something that should be earned!

As I've stated previously, Ohio has 12 other public, four-year universities, numerous branch campuses, and an extensive community college system. The state has provided plenty of options for them to attend a public university.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I have no desire for the OSU to compete with Ivy League schools...if you want Ivy League, then go there. And don't turn my beloved University into something it isn't.

Nobody is trying to turn Ohio State into an Ivy League school. Again being an elite university speaks to the institution's quality: the national reputation of its faculty and the abilities of its students. Being elitist is a socio-economic term, and I have no desire to see Ohio State move in that direction.

Do I want to see it compared favorably with UCLA, Wisconsin, North Carolina or (dare I say it) you know who? Absolutely! Is it within Ohio State's potential to be a top-10 public university? Yes, and quite frankly the train left the station in the mid-80's, and it ain't coming back.

 

[tibor75]

You're absolutely right. An average student does not deserve to be excluded from a public university. They, however, have no god-given, inalienable right to a spot at the state's flagship university. That is something that should be earned!

As I've stated previously, Ohio has 12 other public, four-year universities, numerous branch campuses, and an extensive community college system. The state has provided plenty of options for them to attend a public university.

Exactly. Ohio has plenty of schools for slackers who didn't try hard enough in high school.

Colleges are getting more competitive all the time. A GPA that might have gotten you admitted 10 years ago, won't cut it at OSU anymore. And that's a good thing. If more and more 3.9 GPA high school students are attending OSU, that means less 2.5 students are. And that's a good thing.

It is funny that when the subject of affirmative action comes up, people say, "That stinks. The best students should get in regardless of race"

But when the subject of OSU admissions come up, it's "Hey wait, leave some room for the stupid high school slackers!"

The hypocrisy is comical.

 

[FKAGobucks877]

Is Ohio State not a public university?

 

[tibor75]

Is Ohio State not a public university?

It is. so what? A public university can still have admission requirements. A public university can still be selective.

The only thing a public university means is that it's cheaper to attend since the in-state student's parents have supported it.

Maybe the rule should be all Ohio high school students are guarenteed admission to at least 1 public Ohio university. happy?

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Is Ohio State not a public university?

Last time I checked. What does that have to do with open admissions? Not every public university in a given state has to have open admissions, particularly not the flagship university (see: UC system, the entire Big Ten, North Carolina, Washington, Texas, Arizona, Virginia and numerous others).

The state should provide a tiered system of higher education, so that nobody is left out. That doesn't mean that the flagship university should be open to all.

Again what is so bad about sending a mediocre kid to one of these other institutions? Why does he have to end up at Ohio State? So he can sit in Ohio Stadium on Saturday? If it's so important for him to be a Buckeye, let him take responsibility for his shortcomings and failures, prove himself elsewhere and then transfer to Ohio State.

 

[ekeen]

Why are you guys so concerned with all this talk about admissions and so forth? The idea behind any school is to get you a job. After the tier 1 schools, all the others are pretty much equal. Yes, even a Miami of Ohio degree will not guarantee you success (despite what the students or parents of Miami students will tell you.)

Some employers want to see the big Ivy League names to satisfy their lofty hiring trends and ego (Limited Inc., comes to mind) but in the end work ethic and ability count for everthing.....not ego and book smarts.

As a side note: it's always hilarious to see the look on the face of those that went to these 'elite' schools when you get promoted over them. Didn't Woody say something about this - 'I may not be the smartest but nobody will outwork me'.....or something like that.

Happy Friday everyone.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060609/NEWS07/606090418/1002

Interesting article in the Reno paper today that touches on our discussion. Even minor third and fourth tier public universities like Nevada and UNLV are establishing some base line of admissions requirements.

Look, I don't want this debate to get too out of hand. We're all Buckeyes and want what we believe to be best for our alma mater. Also, quite frankly it's a dead issue. Increasingly selective admissions have twenty years of momentum behind them, and the clock will never be turned back--particularly since the whole Jim Rhodes mandated experiment was tried and failed.

What we really should be worried about is the gross overlapping and redundancies in Ohio's higher education system: 9 Ph.D programs in history, four university owned airports and aviation programs, five law schools (of which only one manages to crack USN&WR's top-50 and one can barely keep its accreditation) to name just a few examples. If we could get the state to eliminate some of the utterly redundant, and usually lowly ranked, graduate and professional programs at other Ohio universities, it would free up a lot of capital for Ohio State to still provide a world class grad/research institution but have more money available to devote to undergraduate needs.

 

[Wingate1217]

Some employers want to see the big Ivy League names to satisfy their lofty hiring trends and ego (Limited Inc., comes to mind) but in the end work ethic and ability count for everthing.....not ego and book smarts.


Happy Friday everyone.

You are right in that regard. I interviewed for a job that was a direct report to the president at a brokerage firm about a decade ago. I was asked to take a standard critical thinking test and scored in the top 1% of everyone who has taken the test nationwide that also have a Bachelor's degree. I was even in the top 10% of the same for folks that had an MBA. I did not get the job because the prez wanted someone with a degree from Wharton, U of Chicago, etc. The head of HR told me this on the sly. But things worked out I was employed by another firm and I have never regretted going to OSU for undergrad and GVSU in GrandRapids for my Masters. Degrees open doors, folks! Once the door is open it is up to you to make the right decisions (hard work, diligence in the job, etc.) to be able to work through that door and have the opportunity to open the next door beyond.

 

[cincibuck]

It is elitist to say that C students don't belong at OSU?

Yes.

Sorry, nobody has a right to attend OSU. That's just stupid thinking.

Wow. Better tell the state legislature because everyday they fund monies on the notion that everybody who graduates from an accredited Ohio High School is entitled to enroll in an Ohio state college. That's why they call them public institutions. Now, a person who lives in the state of Ohio is not automatically entitled to attend Wittenberg, Dayton, Marrieta, Oberlin etc. because those are private institutions.

Here is wikipedia's definition of a land grant college. Sorry, but this definition has no modern meaning anymore.

Oh yeah? Then wait till a "Land Grant" college decides to forbid ROTC or military recruiting on campus and see how fast it takes the governement to look the definition up.

Land-grant universities (also called land-grant colleges or land grant institutions) are institutions of higher education in the United States which have been designated by Congress to receive the benefits of the Morrill Acts of 1862 and 1890.

Hmmmm I wonder what the government wanted in exchange for the land and the money? Couldn't be military training and the promotion of agriculture and engineering and maybe a bit of liberal arts thrown in could it? Geez, Tibs, look at the years for the Morrill act, 1862, 1890. Is the light beginning to go on? The country needed lieutenants and the Morrill act provided them.

The Morrill Acts funded educational institutions by granting federally-controlled land to the states. The mission of these institutions, as set forth in the 1862 Act, is to teach agriculture, military tactics, and the mechanic arts, not to the exclusion of classical studies, so that members of the working classes might obtain a practical college education.

Bingo... and I wonder just who "the working class might be?" Surely not Doctorbs.

I guess this means OSU should stop training pre-med students?

In your case, yes. And you dinged me for being illogical? Read your own research, "not to the exclusion of classical studies" means that those things are to be taught along with the classical studies which are of course, the core of pre med studies. Nurse, next patient please.