Holbrook to Retire (Merged)

[tibor75]

Yes.

Wow. Better tell the state legislature because everyday they fund monies on the notion that everybody who graduates from an accredited Ohio High School is entitled to enroll in an Ohio state college. That's why they call them public institutions. Now, a person who lives in the state of Ohio is not automatically entitled to attend Wittenberg, Dayton, Marrieta, Oberlin etc. because those are private institutions..

I'm confused.
Are you arguing that they are entitled to an Ohio state education or The Ohio State University education?

I agree with the former; disagree completely with the latter. Slacker high school students who can't even maintain a B average (yeah, that's tough) don't belong at OSU if they don't have any special talent.

 

[cincibuck]

No one has responded to this so I'll throw it out again:

And finally, when you have a 3.9 GPA and 1300 SAT and you don't get into OSU and you watch Clyde Doufuss with his 2.5 and 700, but a 23 PPG avg, or Claudia Doufuss with her 3.2 and 900 and meets a diversity requirement, or Smedley Whitelock with his, 2.8 and 1100 and parents in the President's Club all get in, aren't you just a bit pissed?

And if they graduate, don't you sort of wonder if that barrier had any meaning in the first place?

Do you want an Ohio State that looks, thinks and acts like Michigan?

Jim Rhodes didn't get it wrong because he wanted everyone to be free to choose to go to Ohio State or BG or Kent or OU. He got it wrong because he didn't fund anything beyond dorms. He created all those South Dorm rooms without adding any classrooms, labs or funding any teacher slots. We had a university of 44 thousand students and a classroom space that hadn't been increased significantly since the 1930s when the school was only 5,000 students. He got it wrong because he didn't support education, just building.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Do you want an Ohio State that looks, thinks and acts like Michigan?

Now, using Michigan as an example is somewhat inflammatory in this arena, but I'll answer honestly. Football rivalry aside, yes. Academically, Michigan is one the country's great public universities, and if Ohio State can start to become mentioned in that catagory, I'm all for it. Hell, in the context of the rivalry, I'd love to bust out the fact that Ohio State has a higher ranked poly sci department or more members of the National Academies on its faculty on my Michigan friends.

A less inflamatory analogy would be do I want an Ohio State that looks, thinks and acts like UCLA or North Carolina. The answer would be the same: yes.

As to special consideration admissions, I don't have a problem with them, providing they're kept in context.

Now answer my question as to why it's sooooo very important for mediocre Ohio high school students to attend Ohio State when there are 12 other public universities, branch campuses and community colleges available to attend. Why is it so very, very important that they have access to Ohio State even though it drives Ohio State's reputation down, makes it harder to recruit top students and the best faculty, wastes already tight resources on remedial programs and in the end is actually detrimental to them because--as study after study have shown--it is far less likely that they'll graduate in the end as compared to similar students that matriculate at less demanding universities? With all these negatives, why is it so incredibly important that they have access to Ohio State?

 

[cincibuck]

I'm confused.
Are you arguing that they are entitled to an Ohio state education or The Ohio State University education?

I agree with the former; disagree completely with the latter. Slacker high school students who can't even maintain a B average (yeah, that's tough) don't belong at OSU if they don't have any special talent.

Slackers? How do you know if they're slackers before they arrive? Some are and some aren't. Some need to grow up. Some didn't 'get it' until the junior or senior year (me).

I just do not want to see OSU turn into a school like Miami or Michigan or Wisconsin, a "private" public school. If it says Ohio State University on the door then anyone who meets the requirements set up by the state of Ohio should be entitled to have a shot at it.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I just do not want to see OSU turn into a school like Miami or Michigan or Wisconsin, a "private" public school. If it says Ohio State University on the door then anyone who meets the requirements set up by the state of Ohio should be entitled to have a shot at it.

Please don't include Miami in that company. I will grant, however, that they fit the model of a "private" public school far more than Michigan or Wisconsin do. Just because over half their student body comes from families with 100K incomes and they're incredibly self-satisfied doesn't mean that they are in any shape or form (other than their own delusional minds) a top public university. They're not even the top public university in their own state!

Miami has, however, pulled off the incredibly difficult task of becoming elitist without ever becoming elite. It's actually more of an overgrown boarding school for rich kids that didn't get into their top choice schools than anything else.

Besides, I've seen the raw data. Ohio State is kicking their ass for top-10% in-state students--and still keeping our percentage of kids from 100K incomes below our peers' averages. That's becoming elite without becoming elitist. Once the open admissions handcuffs were removed from Ohio State this became a perfectly understandable and predictable developmemt. Why wouldn't kids want to go to the higher ranked school that costs 30% less. It's also my understanding that the only reason Miami is keeping pace with us on admissions is that they're scouring the Chicago suburbs for every ND or Michigan reject they can convince to come to Oxford.

 

[cincibuck]

Now, using Michigan as an example is somewhat inflammatory in this arena, but I'll answer honestly. Football rivalries aside, yes. Academically, Michigan is one the country's great public universities, and if Ohio State can start to become mentioned in that catagory, I'm all for it. Hell, in the context of the rivalry, I'd love to bust out the fact that Ohio State has a higher ranked poly sci department or more members of the National Academies on its faculty on my Michigan friends.

A less inflamatory analogy would be do I want an Ohio State that looks, thinks and acts like UCLA or North Carolina. The answer would be the same: yes.

As to special consideration admissions, I don't have a problem with them, providing their kept in context.

Now answer my question as to why it's sooooo very important for mediocre Ohio high school students to attend Ohio State when there are 12 other public universities, branch campuses and community colleges available to attend. Why is it so very, very important that they have access to Ohio State even though it drives Ohio State's reputation down, makes it harder to recruit top students and the best faculty, wastes already tight resources on remedial programs and in the end is actually detrimental to them because--as study after study have shown--it is far less likely that they'll graduate in the end as compared to similar students that matriculate at less demanding universities? With all these negatives, why is it so incredibly important that they have access to Ohio State?

Because school should be a meritocracy. Athletic skill, gender, race or ethnicity, economic and social clout should not be factors for admitting public university students. The only fair way IMO is to open the doors and let the academics separate the wheat from the chaff.

I think you're worried that the great unwashed will flood the school. That has not been bourn out historically. Kids still went to OU, BG, Wright State et al because of economic factors, family issues, programs (BG has one of the nation's best undergrad speech therapy programs). Kids are also smart enough to figure out that a community college might be a smarter way for them to go, especially if they know the demands and odds they'll be facing. And when Ohio State began offering honors programs and bringing in honors level teaching faculty they began to get more of the students they wanted to compete for. those kinds of programs can be created and funded within an open admissions college if the legislature has the mind to see it happen.

Michigan has much to be proud of, but the deliberate practice of explotation... and admitting the likes of Desmond Howard to a school of Michigan's academic standards is exploitation... is not a source for their pride.

Michigan got to its lofty status because the state legislature has persistently funded the school's academic programs, not just it's buildings. Now we're back to my Jim Rhodes post. If Rhodes had put the money into faculty that Michigan governors have put into it Ohio State would be a match regardless of it's admission policy.

 

[tibor75]

Slackers? How do you know if they're slackers before they arrive? Some are and some aren't. Some need to grow up. Some didn't 'get it' until the junior or senior year (me). .

Then that's too fucking bad. Plenty of students "got" it in junior high. And they should be rewarded. And those that "get it" later, can "get it" at UC or Toledo or wherever. Not at THE Ohio State University. Mediocrity should not be welcome.

Move to Cuba if you want everybody treated the same no matter what they achieve.

The fact that you call Wisconsin a "private" public school just shows how out of touch you are. Laughable even.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Because school should be a meritocracy.

I'm curious. You say that school should be a meritocracy, yet you argue that no preference be shown to those students that have shown merit in high school with regards to admission to the state's highest ranked university[that would be THE :osu: University].

Also, you seem to have some disdain for Miami, yet the policies you advocate are Fredo(OH)'s wet dream. Their best years were largely the result of the handcuffs that Jim Rhodes put on Ohio State, and they'd love for nothing better than to see the state once again force that recruiting handicap on Ohio State.

 

[CleveBucks]

I'd be perfectly happy to see OSU move closer to a Wisconsin, UNC, PSU, or even michigan. They all have top-notch reputations and produce some pretty damn good graduates. I work with quite a few from michigan and Wisconsin everyday.

It's pretty amazing to see the strides OSU has taken in the past 10 years and the results in a lot of programs and colleges. In another 10 years I fully expect OSU to be in the top 10 of public institutions, as long as the financial support is there.

Nobody has an inalienable right to attend the OSU Columbus campus upon graduating from high school. There are branch campuses and other state-supported four-year universities one can start out at if they cannot meet OSU's initial entry requirements. Otherwise OSU would have 80,000 enrolled, or would be forced to turn away a lot of good students. I don't feel that's elitist at all.

 

[Deety]

Does being a Wisconsin taxpayer automatically reserve a spot in Madison for one's kid?

No, there's a different system altogether. The students fund their own education via the consumption tax on alcohol. By collecting the empty cans from the sidewalks after game day and recycling them, graduate programs are also available. At least, that's what I've heard.

 

[cincibuck]

Tibor, you of all people. Go back over your posts and see how often you put yourself into the position of judge and jury... slackers, idiots,,, the words come so quickly for you and not just on this issue.

The point is that Ohio State is a public school paid for by all the citizens. That doesn't mean you can't have standards for excellence. It doesn't mean you have to have remedial programs, or you have to keep those students who either can't or won't do the work, but it does mean you can't run off and create a private place where only the few can attend. You're admitted because you are entitled as a citizen of equal value, not because your grades and SAT scores make you privilaged. You stay because you meet the challenge. You succeed because you worked. Or you fail because you didn't and you move on. Bidabing, bidabang, bidaboom.

If you go to selective enrollment you create: quotas, legacies, and the kind of athletic/academic mismatches best typified by Desmond Howard and the University of Michigan. Is that what you want?

What created the academic gap between OSU and Michigan came about while both were open enrollment universities. For a long period of time the tax payers of Michigan spent more per capita on education: elementary, secondary and college, than did the fine citizens of Ohio. It paid off. While Ohio State was building dorms, Michigan was building faculty and academic facilities.

OSU recently became the third Big 10 school to have its endowment fund go over a billion dollars. Michigan was the first. My point? For a long period of time the legislature of Michigan and the Michigan alums have put their money where their mouth is. Ohioans have sought low taxes and education on the cheap.

 

[CleveBucks]

The point is that Ohio State is a public school paid for by all the citizens. That doesn't mean you can't have standards for excellence. It doesn't mean you have to have remedial programs, or you have to keep those students who either can't or won't do the work, but it does mean you can't run off and create a private place where only the few can attend. You're admitted because you are entitled as a citizen of equal value, not because your grades and SAT scores make you privilaged.

That may be in your ideal world, but in reality it's simply not true. In Ohio or anywhere else.

OSU recently became the third Big 10 school to have its endowment fund go over a billion dollars. Michigan was the first. My point? For a long period of time the legislature of Michigan and the Michigan alums have put their money where their mouth is. Ohioans have sought low taxes and education on the cheap.

The endowment just crossed over the $2 billion mark.

 

[cincibuck]

That may be in your ideal world, but in reality it's simply not true. In Ohio or anywhere else.

It's an argument about ideals and philosophies not realities.

But the fact remains that from 1920 to approximately 1970, both OSU and U of M were open enrollment schools and during that time U of M outstriped its rival in academic achievement. A significant part of that difference in achievement was due to money, not selective enrollment.

The endowment just crossed over the $2 billion mark.

And is still smaller than Michigan's because Michigan and Michigan alums have supported higher education better than Ohio and Ohio State alums.

Note that the figures are first for 2005, then 2004 and that the amounts are stated in thousands.​

University of Michigan, Financial operations report,June 30,2005 2004​

(in thousands)​

ASSETS​

Current Assets:

Endowment, life income and other investments 5,196,486 4,348,534
Notes and pledges receivable, net 219,277 132,134​

TOTAL LIABILITIES AND NET ASSETS $ 10,784,419 $ 9,496,200​

A gap of more than 3 billion dollars.​

.​

 

[stxbuck]

Couple of points

1-I don't see why some people think the state is not fulfilling it's duties to HS slackers by ratchetting up OSU's admissions criteria. Wright State and Akron are options. I suspect the real reason is that a lot of kids heard stories about tOSU from family-who may have gotten in w/ less than stellar GPAs-and are fixated on the football team, High St, parties,etc., w/out having a lot of academic motivation. Now, they are heartbroken that they might have to go to a regionol campus or BG. The ones who truly want to go to OSU will do just that-I have taught several-they put in their time at Newark or Mansfield, and now they are like any other OSU student. I tell my sophmores-the die is pretty well cast for the seniors I teach-that the reason they should work hard is b/c they will want to have a chance to go to OSU or Miami or ND. I tell them that going to OSU is a lot more fun than going to Sinclair or Wright St- if they screw off in my class, they are jeopardizing any chances they might have of getting football tickets.

2-Miami is an interesting place to observe. I went there as a commuter grad student, and basically associated mostly w/ other commuter students from the area. One day I was in the main library in the middle of the day, and looked around and suddenly realized that I was the only person in the room-out of maybe 40 or 50 people in sight-wearing jeans!
A more telling event happened when a member of the Black Student Union (or whatever they called it) spray painted KKK and such in their office to get "attention" to racism at Miami. Before the hoax was discovered, the black group at school had a huge protest that tied up traffic on RT 73 for miles. In response, the school scheduled a huge "speakout" about campus racism,etc. My grad class that evening decided to attend this event instead of having class, and the prof was cool w/ the idea. Well, for about 30 minutes we sit and listen-there was a pretty big turnout-to black students rage about how Miami didn't understand them, and preppy kids talk about diversity and how the loved Dave Matthews (well, not really), and how they really wanted Miami to become this multicultual utopia,basically. Then I get up, dressed like a construction worker, b/c I came straight from my job at a city public works dept. I prefaced my remarks by sayin g they were not intended for commuter students or grad students. I then basically told everyone in the room that they were full of it-the preppies didn't have going to a diverse campus as a high priority-they went to Miami b/c they fell in love w/ the bricks and khaki and fraternities-and would have gone somewhere else if social diversity was high on their priority list, and as for the black students, I basically said that yes, Miami was very white-didn't you notice that on your campus visit. Needless to say, I pissed off just about everyone in the room except for the commuters, and some of my professors, who just laughed when they heard what I said.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I have a question for you Cincibuck.

You say that you teach at Miami. Do you believe that Miami should also have open admissions? Despite their myths to the contrary, they are still a public university the last time I checked. Is what's good for Michael good for Fredo?

The entire Miami administration would love nothing better than to watch the state force open admissions back on Ohio State. They're losing the battle every year with Ohio State, and the only conceivable way that they could gain the upper hand is for Ohio State to be artificially and forcibly dumbed down by the state.

Are you really arguing for what you truly think is in the best institutional interests of Ohio State or what is in the best insititutional interests of your employer?

As to this whole taxpayer nonsense, last fiscal year the state of Ohio contributed 18% of Ohio State's operating budget. As far as I'm concerned, Ohio's taxpayers get 18% of the votes at the table. No More!