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- Thread starter PrincessPeach
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cincibuck
You kids stay off my lawn!
The point remains that selective enrollment was not the factor that made Michigan a "great university." It became that despite having open enrollment. It became a great university because it had a great faculty, great facilites, great leadership and because the students who walked through the doors were ready to learn. The university could do those things because for a long period of time the citizens of Michigan taxed themselves for the greater good.
When, what the university had achieved and economic prosperity combined to create more applicants than openings, Michigan chose to go to selective enrollment. They set up GPA/class rank/SAT standards. They could have chosen to do what the University of Texas did: anyone who graduates in the top 10% of his/her high school class is automatically qualified for enrollment. Or they could have established a lottery... either of which seems fairer to me than the system they chose.
But... OK. I can live with that, but then let's apply it across the board. They didn't, they don't and they won't in the future either.
They have quotas. They have legacies, they give scholarships to people who haven't earned it in the classroom. And when Ohio State pushes its standards up, guess what? We'll do the same damn things.
That's not fair, that's not a meritocracy. It becomes a pick and choose and leave out system.
It also creates attitudes of privilage among those who do get in, a sense of superiority, the very kind of thing STXB saw as a grad student at Miami. the very kind of thing that makes you angry when Northwestern students chant SAT, or Michigan alums call their school "The Harvard of the Midwest" (which would really be Chicago).
When, what the university had achieved and economic prosperity combined to create more applicants than openings, Michigan chose to go to selective enrollment. They set up GPA/class rank/SAT standards. They could have chosen to do what the University of Texas did: anyone who graduates in the top 10% of his/her high school class is automatically qualified for enrollment. Or they could have established a lottery... either of which seems fairer to me than the system they chose.
But... OK. I can live with that, but then let's apply it across the board. They didn't, they don't and they won't in the future either.
They have quotas. They have legacies, they give scholarships to people who haven't earned it in the classroom. And when Ohio State pushes its standards up, guess what? We'll do the same damn things.
That's not fair, that's not a meritocracy. It becomes a pick and choose and leave out system.
It also creates attitudes of privilage among those who do get in, a sense of superiority, the very kind of thing STXB saw as a grad student at Miami. the very kind of thing that makes you angry when Northwestern students chant SAT, or Michigan alums call their school "The Harvard of the Midwest" (which would really be Chicago).
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cincibuck
You kids stay off my lawn!
Go back a few posts. I didn't understand it either. It comes from Fredo, the lesser son in the Corleone family (The Godfather I, II & III), who whines about his lack of status. Evidently it's a known reference to Miami... hence the (OH) as in Miami Hurricanes and the Miami (OH) Red Hawks.
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ORD_Buckeye
Wrong glass, Sir.
It's a term used in some Ohio State circles for Miami. Fredo Corleone was the older brother in The Godfather, who forced to watch his younger (not to mention smarter and stronger) brother Michael take charge, becomes consumed in his jealousy, bitterness and irrelevance. It's sometimes used for OU also. FredOU and Fredo(OH).
And have no illusions, the administration and higher-ups at Fredo(OH) hate Ohio State with a passion. Michigan may be our sports rival, but there is no other university on the face of the earth that works to %#&^ Ohio State on a daily basis.
I guess that's the thanks we get for starting their g-damned doctoral programs for them. Did you know that for the first ten or so years that Fredo(OH) offered a Ph.D it read "Miami University in conjunction with The Ohio State University." Our reward is their constantly going behind our back with the state to try and screw us. Just like Michael, despite giving Fredo a casino to run out in Vegas, still had to deal with Fredo's ingratitude and treachery.
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Cinci....lets say OSU went to open enrollment....anyone who wants in gets in that is from the state of ohio......where do they live once they get to campus?
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ORD_Buckeye
Wrong glass, Sir.
Actually, the Texas plan is a recent development in response to court challenges to affirmative action. Prior to that, they had a standard selective admissions system similar to Big Ten schools.
What you're thinking of is the California Plan adopted (I think in the late 50's) where a student that graduated in the top 12.5% of his high school class is guaranteed a spot in A UC campus--not necessarily Berkeley. A student who graduates in the top 33% of his class is guaranteed a spot in a Cal State campus and everybody else is guaranteed a community college education to begin.
I would have no problem with Ohio going to such a model, but given the city-state nature of Ohio politics it's completely unworkable from a political standpoint. Every single campus would demand that they be one of the 12.5% campuses, and their local legislators and chambers of commerce would take the battle to the statehouse. It would take an incredibly strong, intelligent and politically astute Governor to ever get such a plan enacted. And then again, you're still telling 87.5% of Ohio's graduating high school class that they are not guaranteed a spot at Ohio State.
You haven't answered my earlier question. Do you also support open admissions for your employer--Miami University? Yes or No.
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ORD_Buckeye
Wrong glass, Sir.
Good question. I guess I'd say Bowling Green. Almost everybody that I met from there was a crazy f%#!.
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cincibuck
You kids stay off my lawn!
Miami was an open admissions school until sometime in the early 60s. Shriver, president of the university and big suck ass in state politics, later head of the Ohio Board of Regents, pushed for selective enrollment for Miami because of declining enrollemnt which he blamed on Miami's rural setting and the fact that the road net in and out of Oxford sucked... which is still the case. You may recall that for a short period of time the same rule was applied to OU and for the same 'rural setting' reasons. And, for the record, No, I don't believe Miami should have selective enrollemnt. I think the selective enrollment has created an atmosphere at Miami that is wonderfully depicted in STXB's post and that is what I fear will happen at OSU.
As for employment, I teach a 2 hour grad course in Miami's MAT program. In previous years I taught English 111 and 112. Miami could care less how I feel about their policies. I'm a retired reading specialist for Hamilton county Education Service Center, a retired Army officer and a current English instructor at NKU.
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ORD_Buckeye
Wrong glass, Sir.
Thanks for the clarification. Even though we strongly disagree on this issue, I respect your consistency. I always understood that Miami kind of weaseled selective admissions during the Jim Rhodes era. They were under the same requirements as all the rest of the Ohio public universities. They just didn't request capital funds for more dormitories, so they kind of backed their way into selective admissions through not having enough dorm space for the burgeoning baby boom enrollment. In any case, given Ohio State's physical proximity, special role in the state psyche and the fact it's the university that Rhodes flunked out of his freshman year, Ohio State could never have gotten away with such a stunt.
I really don't see Ohio State becoming similar socially to Miami for several reasons. For one thing, it's simply too big to ever be this monolithic student body of white, greek business majors. Ohio State is always going to be diverse in terms of politics, ethnicity and majors just because of its size. Also, as I've pointed out, the university is working very hard and devoting a great deal of money into ensuring that, as admissions standards go up, the % of kids from 100K families doesn't go through the roof. The latest initiative in this regard was the land-grant scholarship begun this past year, where Ohio State is funding, each year, a full-ride scholarship for at least one high-ability/low-income kid from each of Ohio's 88 counties (actually awarded 100 this year). Combine that with the 100 or so minority kids from the Young Scholars program that enroll every year, and that's 3% of the freshman class from just these two programs.
I also think the Miami attitude is driven to a significant degree by the fact that one is dealing with rich kids going to their backup school. So far, Ohio State has not become a backup school for rich kids. Our yield is almost 50%. I really see Ohio State becoming more like UCLA or Wisconsin, where the student body definately takes pride in their school's ranking and reputation but doesn't come off as the snotty, privileged pricks that one finds at Fredo(OH). But then again, this is understandable. I truly believe that the "Miami attitude" is one of insecurity and overcompensation--not genuine confidence. They have this ingrained sense of superiority and entitlement, but--at least on a subconscious level--know that their school is nowhere near as renowned as they portray it.
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cincibuck
You kids stay off my lawn!
Assumming that we reach the point where applications outnumber openings, you go to a lottery... no quotas, no legacies, no scholarships for anything but scholarship.
Yeah, that's an ideal, but as I pointed out earlier, that's what this discussion is about. what I'd be more concerned with is what happens when we don't have the class space and we don't have the teacher/student ratios we need for excellence.
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So then it won't matter how hard you work just in H.S. just graduate and then maybe if you get lucky you will get to go to OSU just win the lotto? And what about athletes? How would recruiting work? Are there certain lotto spots set aside for just out of state students? Or do we not allow out of state students any more? What should the number be set at? are their certain number of male spots and female spots? Once again where do all of these people live. You do know that OSU already has a shortage of dorm living space right? With study rooms in the halls being converted to temp rooms for people to live in?
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