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Yahoo, Tattoos, and tOSU (1-year bowl ban, 82 scholly limit for 3 years)

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cincibuck;1939216; said:
How would you define "university" and "education" that would give a college the moral leverage needed to break, bend, modify, subordinate or ignore written rules agreed to when becoming members of an organization created, designed and authorized to monitor, enforce and adjudicate agreed to rules?

If, in order to field "a competent team," it is necessary to go against the spirit and letter of the laws the college agreed to, then the college is stating that ethics can be broken, bent, modified, subordinated or ignored in the pursuit of athletic excellence; especially "if everyone else is doing it."
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I don't mean to be insulting, truly, but this whole argument seems pretty pedantic and legalistic to me.

Plausible deniability to me means that a system is in place such that minor violations are not "discovered," since they mean fuck-all in the grand scheme of things. Major violations, like getting $40,000 for one's autographs, would not fall within this realm.

In all honesty, the terms "moral leverage" and "subordinated ethics" do not have much apparent meaning to me.
 
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MaxBuck;1939252; said:
I don't mean to be insulting, truly, but this whole argument seems pretty pedantic and legalistic to me.

Plausible deniability to me means that a system is in place such that minor violations are not "discovered," since they mean fuck-all in the grand scheme of things. Major violations, like getting $40,000 for one's autographs, would not fall within this realm.

In all honesty, the terms "moral leverage" and "subordinated ethics" do not have much apparent meaning to me.
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Fair enough, I'm not a lawyer and I didn't take Latin. The point is that you and others responding here are upset that Ohio State was caught while you believe others do the same, or worse, and don't get caught and punished. You, I believe, took it a step further to suggest that the only way to "put a competent team on the field" was to break NCAA rules. In terms of the real world of college football you may well be correct.

BUT

My point is that the purpose of a "university" and "education" has to be rooted in ideals, and yes, we know that student's cheat, get drunk, waste time and money, administrators create fiefdoms, fudge budgets, professors ask trick questions, make grad students do their research and occasionally indulge in sexual harassment of students.

Despite these human shortcomings the definitions, the meanings of "university" and "education" need to be constants. Both need to be defined in such a way that implies, if not directly states, centered on ethical behavior.

If, in order to "field a competent team," it is necessary to act in an unethical manner then perhaps a "university," designed to provide "education" should leave "fielding a competent team" to the NFL.
 
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Okay, good luck getting any university to abandon the millions of $$$ and emotional support that a high-revenue athletic department brings in (cue ORD claiming the athletic dept. doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things, I don't buy it.). The money is too much for the schools not to do the unethical stuff, and it is seen all the way down the ladder in Div. 2 and 3 in sports like golf, tennis, and track and field!

Your spot on your high horse may be "right," but it is definitely not realistic in our current climate, and that climate will not change any time soon.
 
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scarletmike;1939384; said:
Okay, good luck getting any university to abandon the millions of $$$ and emotional support that a high-revenue athletic department brings in (cue ORD claiming the athletic dept. doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things, I don't buy it.). The money is too much for the schools not to do the unethical stuff, and it is seen all the way down the ladder in Div. 2 and 3 in sports like golf, tennis, and track and field!

Your spot on your high horse may be "right," but it is definitely not realistic in our current climate, and that climate will not change any time soon.
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It's not a matter of being on a high horse. Perhaps you're experiencing cognitive dissonance. Like me, you probably bought into the idea that Ohio State and Jim Tressell ran a clean program and operated in an ethical manner. When an athlete got out of hand the matter was dealt with, not ignored. That this was not the case isn't easy to accept.

As to $$$ the money the athletic department brings in stays in the Athletic Department. It does not go the university. It does not help fund the scholarship fund or pay professors.

The most that can be said is that Ohio State is fortunate that football and basketball make enough money that funds do not have to come from university monies to help shoulder the cost of athletics. That's probably true at five, possibly six, other Big Ten schools. It's true at Texas and Oklahoma and probably all SEC schools except Vandy.

However, at most schools athletics runs at a deficit and the costs of the program are covered from other school funds.

I don't know about your gifting, I only know that I give to the College of Education at Ohio State and University of Cincinnati yearly and I do so without regard to how the football and basketball programs are going. I give because I received something of great value at both schools: an education rooted in research, ethics and experience.

More than one study has been conducted into the connection between success on the field and alumni giving and the same result shows up: there's very little correlation between winning teams and giving.
 
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http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/attorney_in_osu_scandal_accuse.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The attorney who tipped off Ohio State football coach Jim Tressel has been accused of divulging confidential information from a prospective client -- a move that set off the university's scandal.
The Ohio Supreme Court's Disciplinary Counsel released misconduct charges today accusing Christopher Cicero of disclosing to Tressel details about the attorney's conversations with tattoo parlor owner Eddie Rife.
The documents said Rife met with Cicero on April 2, 2010, the day after federal officials raided Rife's home in a drug raid. The agents also seized a large stash of Ohio State memorabilia, including gold pendants, jerseys, championship rings and jerseys.
"During the meeting, Rife expressed his concern that their conversation would remain confidential," the disciplinary documents said. "(Cicero) assured Rife that everything Rife told (Cicero) would remain confidential.
"Rife proceeded to tell (Cicero) all the details surrounding his involvement in criminal activity. Rife also explained to (Cicero) how he came into possession of the OSU memorabilia seized during the raid."
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SayNoToMichigan said:
How many fails will it take for the media to back off? First the Dispatch, now S.I., both to of been proven mostly false. I will LOL for a month if the NCAA doesn't change the NOA. It will be fun to watch the opposing fanbases crawl back in the their holes.

With all the shit thats been talked, I wonder how they will deal with the ass kicking we are gonna hand out this fall.
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Eh....I'll just be happy with getting off with a slap on the wrist. I don't think very many death row inmates laugh in the cops' faces after they get a pardon from the governor.
 
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After reading mulitple threads on this topic, I haven't seen one post about the responsibility the football COMMUNITY needs to take for all of this going down. Allow me to explain.

First, one side shows the players being at fault, especially Pryor. BUT he wasn't the only player out there making poor decisions and mistakes yet he is the one player bought up most often due to his popularity. I am not condoning what Pryor did or didn't do. I understand both sides of the argument concerning a players responsibility and the temptation put in front of them by certain members of the football COMMUNITY and the majority of the players avoid these situations. If certain members of the COMMUNITY did not offer these temptations, it would not be a problem.

Secondly, Coach Tressel made mistakes and he paid for it. Anyone that expects a FOOTBALL coach (and staff) to monitor 100 18 - 22 year old young men twenty-four hours a day are not only unrealistic BUT stupid. These football players are also STUDENT-ATHLETES. Why not suspend the psychology or algebra professor? Why not suspend any other university professional that comes in contact with them becasue they are doing things that are against NCAA rules and they are not "self-reporting" it? Bottomline: Coach Tressel would still be coach IF certain members of the COMMUNITY did what they were suppose to and not kiss these young men's collective butts and provide them with "perks"!

I am very proud to be a Buckeye. I was born and raised in Ohio and grew up loving that team. I am not an alumni nor a booster. I am a diehard fan. I finally caught my first game this past season (Penn State game) and first basketball game the Firday evening before. I saw Lighty and Lauderdale at Applebees after the game with their families and took a few moments to simply go up to them, shake their hands and thanked them for a well-played game. I saw others do it as well. What a great weekend experience this was.

What I'm leading up to is this. As far as all sports go in the state of Ohio, Ohio State football IS the most popular. Trust me, I haven't lived in Ohio since 1983 (joined the Army at that time) and whenever the topic of sports came up, Ohio State football was the most discussed topic hands down. For the most part, we (Ohio State) have some of the most knowledgable and dedicated fans in all of sports. Therefore, I can easily make the assumption that the COMMUNITY in general knows what they CAN and CANNOT do in respect to what is right and wrong when it comes to our student-athletes. We expect the OSU President, AD, and HC to be held accountable for their transgressions. What about the COMMUNITY being held accountable for theirs? The students get briefings and classes on what they can and can't do in regards to NCAA rules. I think its high time the COMMUNITY gets the same thing.....that is if they love their Ohio State football team as much as they say they do.:oh:
 
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scarletmike;1939384; said:
Okay, good luck getting any university to abandon the millions of $$$ and emotional support that a high-revenue athletic department brings in (cue ORD claiming the athletic dept. doesn't mean [Mark May] in the grand scheme of things, I don't buy it.). The money is too much for the schools not to do the unethical stuff, and it is seen all the way down the ladder in Div. 2 and 3 in sports like golf, tennis, and track and field!

Your spot on your high horse may be "right," but it is definitely not realistic in our current climate, and that climate will not change any time soon.
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Coach's cheat for one reason: to win, and even the results (financial and otherwise) of that on-field success has a very marginal impact on anything other than the athletic department. Hey, I'm happy our athletic department is self-supporting and funds all those scholarships in the non-revenue sports, but that's its limitations. Whatever transfers of a few million dollars that they might make to the university general fund is nothing more than couch cushion change in the larger scheme of things.

AD fundraising is less than 10% of the total, and in any study of the subject I've ever seen has no bearing on overall fundraising. In fact, if there's any correlation, it's probably a negative one where shit like we're going through right now scares off some academic donations.

The entire athletic budget is one-seventh the university's annual research budget.

A winning football team might drive applications from some kids who aren't going to get in anyway ( so we can show USN&WR a lower acceptance rate; that is a little something) but do you really think that the 30+ ACT kids are sitting at home making their decisions based on how schools' football teams did as opposed to other factors such as the school's reputations, competitiveness and cost?

The one area I will concede is that the overwhelming cultural aspects of Ohio State football in the state probably do make things a little easier for Ohio State in the legislature, but that too hasn't always been the case even when the team was dominant on the national stage (60s and 70s).

Sorry, but if the Ohio State football program ends up going into the crapper for a few years, the Ohio State University will be just fine.

What's become clear is that a large portion of our fanbase simply does not care about anything other than winning football games. Sure, it was great to mouth some empty platitudes to running a clean program and to mock the USCs and SECs of the world when we were perceived to be clean; it was just one more "victory" over the opponents. But when being (or I should say becoming) clean is actually perceived to be a threat to winning football games, then it's fuck integrity, fuck the university's reputation or mission, let's get our fucking cheat on if that's what it takes to win football games! Let's disband the Big Ten and go to a virtual semi-pro league of big time "schools." Let's win some fucking football games!

To each, their own...I guess.
 
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Gifting and Winning:


http://www.knightcommission.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=372&Itemid=93


https://umdrive.memphis.edu/southal...Issues Articles/Athletics and Fundraising.pdf

http://gradworks.umi.com/31/81/3181133.html

http://econweb.tamu.edu/jmeer/Meer_Rosen_Athletics_EER.PDF


Page 547, scroll down to ?Athletics as an Albatross.?

http://books.google.com/books?id=0Q...esnum=7&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q&f=false

Please note, as these reports do, the differences between gift to the school and gifts to the university, sometimes stated as "restricted gifts (which can go either way) and unrestricted (which leaves the school free to chose where the money goes.)
 
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cincibuck;1939489; said:
Gifting and Winning:


http://www.knightcommission.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=372&Itemid=93


https://umdrive.memphis.edu/southal...Issues Articles/Athletics and Fundraising.pdf

http://gradworks.umi.com/31/81/3181133.html

http://econweb.tamu.edu/jmeer/Meer_Rosen_Athletics_EER.PDF


Page 547, scroll down to ?Athletics as an Albatross.?

http://books.google.com/books?id=0Q...esnum=7&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q&f=false

Please note, as these reports do, the differences between gift to the school and gifts to the university, sometimes stated as "restricted gifts (which can go either way) and unrestricted (which leaves the school free to chose where the money goes.)
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Great links, cinci. If athletic success is so important, then why does the University of Minnesota have a $2B endowment and Bama have a 1/2 billion dollar endowment? Guess those hockey fans really pony up.

Another example is Indiana, who is on a string of several highly successful fundraising years (hint: higher levels than Ohio State) while their flagship sports program is at its lowest levels in my lifetime.
 
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why does the University of Minnesota have a $2B endowment and Bama have a 1/2 billion dollar endowment?
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207_not_sure_if_serious.jpg
 
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cincibuck;1939459; said:
The most that can be said is that Ohio State is fortunate that football and basketball make enough money that funds do not have to come from university monies to help shoulder the cost of athletics. That's probably true at five, possibly six, other Big Ten schools. It's true at Texas and Oklahoma and probably all SEC schools except Vandy.
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Vandy has no athletic department. It was disbanded by Gordon Gee in 2003. Athletics at Vanderbilt are just part of the university in general.
 
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