The Race Card

[Taosman]

Well I would say that members of a certain political party who support a certain platform is probably more justified in expecting to be on the same page than people who just happen to have the same shade of skin and similar DNA.

But OUR ancestors weren't brought here against their will and treated like animals.
Make no mistake, I'm in the "it's up to you to lift yourself up" camp.
But saying one group is more "justified" than another is weak sauce.

 

[Bucklion]

Obviously, there are extremes on both sides and extremism is a bad thing. That we can agree on.
But, what passes for "extreme " these days? Or "extreme enough"?
Clearly, we have lost an ability to talk to each other. To have a "common ground" discussion without name calling.
I'd like to see more conservatives talk to "libs" about common ground issues like economics and social issues.
I have had some great discussions with my conservative cousin about abortion as a common ground issue.
So, it is possible if there is a comfort level and basic respect.

There's something you don't read...pretty much ever

 

[matcar]

Yes. I have traveled a bit and seen the income gap in other countries. People living in shacks.
I'm just more concerned about THIS America. MY country.

Fine, again this country has plenty of room for improvement, but just a reminder that this country is still the bar by which all other countries fail to measure up to.

And by the way, many countries have had portions if their populations arrive via slavery. Again, we are not alone in that. Meanwhile, several countries/regions/tribes in Africa willingly sold slaves and profited from it. Bloody hands are everywhere in that. And many if those human trafficking issues are still in existence there.

We should always strive to improve, but it's also good remember where we stand when suggesting how this country fails.

 

[jwinslow]

Obviously, there are extremes on both sides and extremism is a bad thing. That we can agree on.
But, what passes for "extreme " these days? Or "extreme enough"?
Clearly, we have lost an ability to talk to each other. To have a "common ground" discussion without name calling.
I'd like to see more conservatives talk to "libs" about common ground issues like economics and social issues.
I have had some great discussions with my conservative cousin about abortion as a common ground issue.
So, it is possible if there is a comfort level and basic respect.

She was kindly pointing out that you were doing the exact thing you were discussing in that criticism.

 

[Deety]

If you believe that injustice doesn't exist then you don't see a need for "social progress". Regardless of whether it exists in other countries. I'm more concerned about my country and it's direction or lack there of. I want Americans to think about the future of this country. Ideology can stop all progress. Tho some find "progress" a bad idea from the beginning.

Why in the world should "social anything" be the domain of government? Are people so desperate to be controlled? To control others? The government ought to ensure people are treated equally by the government, not to equalize people's stuff by force.

What you call progress is actually the growth of control. Forcing people into some action you find desirable. Only it isn't actually you that is forcing that change and deciding what it should be; maybe your plans would be awesome for everyone. It's an insular group of people, often with little real-world experience outside politics, faced with less and less accountability, heavily influenced by other powerful people whose motives you might not like. Once it is accepted that they have the power to decide what care you get, what food you eat, what you can plant, who you can associate with, and what you can teach your kids, they don't necessarily have to follow your plans for any of those things. You're the sheep, not the shepherd.

Before you ask government to take more and more control over the minutia of people's daily lives, think about who actually receives that power, and what the odds are that things will ultimately turn out the way you want them to. Isn't it better for people to keep control of their own lives, and exert their own influence on their own communities to shape them the way they like, rather than to try to create gods out of ordinary humans at the voting booth?

 

[DubCoffman62]

Hitler believed in social justice for the German people. We know how that turned out.

 

[Deety]

Hitler believed in social justice for the German people. We know how that turned out.

You might want to clarify whether you mean "Obama is Hitler" or "when you give government power you cannot determine what they will do with it." Because putting it like that is just going to bring out the armies of straw men.

 

[DubCoffman62]

Wasn't making a comparison between the two at all, just pointing out that H

You might want to clarify whether you mean "Obama is Hitler" or "when you give government power you cannot determine what they will do with it." Because putting it like that is just going to bring out the armies of straw men.

Hitler was out to right the wrongs done to the German people by outsiders. Comparing politicians to Hitler is childish.

I think that this is what Taosman would love, like they have in the UK

 

[Deety]

Wasn't making a comparison between the two at all, just pointing out that Hitler was out to right the wrongs done to the German people by outsiders. Comparing politicians to Hitler is childish.

I think that this is what Taosman would love, like they have in the UK

No, the world as Taosman would like it to be is probably a pretty good place to be. It's the means of getting there, and what can go wrong with the path he would have us travel, that bothers me.

I think we would have better discussion if we all tried to see other people's points through their own eyes, and debate the areas of genuine political and philosophical disagreement rather than turning each other into cartoon bad guys.

 

[matcar]

Why in the world should "social anything" be the domain of government? Are people so desperate to be controlled? To control others? The government ought to ensure people are treated equally by the government, not to equalize people's stuff by force.

What you call progress is actually the growth of control. Forcing people into some action you find desirable. Only it isn't actually you that is forcing that change and deciding what it should be; maybe your plans would be awesome for everyone. It's an insular group of people, often with little real-world experience outside politics, faced with less and less accountability, heavily influenced by other powerful people whose motives you might not like. Once it is accepted that they have the power to decide what care you get, what food you eat, what you can plant, who you can associate with, and what you can teach your kids, they don't necessarily have to follow your plans for any of those things. You're the sheep, not the shepherd.

Before you ask government to take more and more control over the minutia of people's daily lives, think about who actually receives that power, and what the odds are that things will ultimately turn out the way you want them to. Isn't it better for people to keep control of their own lives, and exert their own influence on their own communities to shape them the way they like, rather than to try to create gods out of ordinary humans at the voting booth?

This is beautiful. I wish I had written this.

 

[Taosman]

Why in the world should "social anything" be the domain of government? Are people so desperate to be controlled? To control others? The government ought to ensure people are treated equally by the government, not to equalize people's stuff by force.

What you call progress is actually the growth of control. Forcing people into some action you find desirable. Only it isn't actually you that is forcing that change and deciding what it should be; maybe your plans would be awesome for everyone. It's an insular group of people, often with little real-world experience outside politics, faced with less and less accountability, heavily influenced by other powerful people whose motives you might not like. Once it is accepted that they have the power to decide what care you get, what food you eat, what you can plant, who you can associate with, and what you can teach your kids, they don't necessarily have to follow your plans for any of those things. You're the sheep, not the shepherd.

Before you ask government to take more and more control over the minutia of people's daily lives, think about who actually receives that power, and what the odds are that things will ultimately turn out the way you want them to. Isn't it better for people to keep control of their own lives, and exert their own influence on their own communities to shape them the way they like, rather than to try to create gods out of ordinary humans at the voting booth?

The gods are already in control at the voting booth(millionaires only qualifying for office) so we have to take our government back and set a course in the best interest of most of the people. That is something I hear even from conservatives. That is at the very core of social progress right now.
Billions of dollars being wasted on jets that can't go out in a thunder storm while the veterans can't even see a doctor.
The richest country in the world with millions unable to afford health insurance.
Children not getting first class food for lunch in schools.(kids get class 2 food for lunch)
There's a whole lot rotten in our democracy that needs cleaned out right now.
Social Security is not an "entitlement".
People have been long term jobless for years now because of politics.
Even Vets get their Food Stamps taken away.
We allow children to be murdered in mass in their school rooms because of the Second Amendment? Where the hell is the common sense people? The humanity?
When business(profit motive) can't or won't help people in need then it falls on the government to make changes.
To provide "direction". it is OUR government after all.

 

[DubCoffman62]

No, the world as Taosman would like it to be is probably a pretty good place to be. It's the means of getting there, and what can go wrong with the path he would have us travel, that bothers me.

I think we would have better discussion if we all tried to see other people's points through their own eyes, and debate the areas of genuine political and philosophical disagreement rather than turning each other into cartoon bad guys.

Maybe so but I've always seen this utopia vision as pure fantasy, never going to happen. It requires 100% of the people to buy into someone elses vision of a utopia. I think we all know this will never happen. Although I see absolutely nothing wrong with multiple cultures living together in perfect harmony it's been my observation that people of different cultures, nothing to do with race or skin color, separate themselves. People want o be around their own kind, people that they have something in common with. You could even look back to high school in the lunch room. Even at an all white school you had groups separating themselves. The jocks at one table, the nerds at another, the stoner table, the nobody table.... If you left everyone alone and let nature take it's course this is how it would be. Sometimes it feels like they're pour oil and water together in a bottle and shaking it until they come together. As soon as you quit shaking they separate again.

 

[DubCoffman62]

The gods are already in control at the voting booth(millionaires only qualifying for office) so we have to take our government back and set a course in the best interest of most of the people. That is something I hear even from conservatives. That is at the very core of social progress right now. Billions of dollars being wasted on jets that can't go out in a thunder storm while the veterans can't even see a doctor. The richest country in the world with millions unable to afford health insurance. Children not getting first class food for lunch in schools.(kids get class 2 food for lunch) There's a whole lot rotten in our democracy that needs cleaned out right now. Social Security is not an "entitlement". People have been long term jobless for years now because of politics. Even Vets get their Food Stamps taken away. We allow children to be murdered in mass in their school rooms because of the Second Amendment? Where the hell is the common sense people? The humanity? When business(profit motive) can't or won't help people in need then it falls on the government to make changes.

This is where you lose me because i don't see wealth equality as social justice. I was extremely poor at some points in my childhood and early adult life. Yes it was rough at times but looking back they were some of my best times in my life. Happiness comes from within, yes it's nice to have money now and live more comfortably but I wouldn't necessarily say I'm happier now than I was back then. There always has and always will be haves and have nots. Your time is limited, make the best of it for you, don't worry about people having more than you. Wealth is actually a great burden and the stress of becoming wealthy will kill you. Do you know how many of my Mexican friends have parents back in Mexico that are dirt poor but still going strong in their 80's? I have a friends that earns $10 a day working at a factory in Tijuana yet she's pretty happy. People wasn't equate wealth with justice.

 

[Taosman]

No, the world as Taosman would like it to be is probably a pretty good place to be. It's the means of getting there, and what can go wrong with the path he would have us travel, that bothers me.

I think we would have better discussion if we all tried to see other people's points through their own eyes, and debate the areas of genuine political and philosophical disagreement rather than turning each other into cartoon bad guys.

There is a balance, a middle road to getting there and we are at extremes right now and people are getting hurt. The Trickle Down Theory doesn't work. That has been proven for years. People can't build infrastructure. Only governments can. That takes taxes. Business could take care of our veterans needs but don't wish to. Why would any government want to get involved with healthcare? Because business doesn't care about anything but making money. Every major country has learned that but us.
Why would Americans need a "direction" socially? Winston Churchill is quoted as saying; "You can count on Americans to do the right thing-after they've done everything else!"
Maybe he saw us better than we see ourselves.

 

[Taosman]

Maybe so but I've always seen this utopia vision as pure fantasy, never going to happen. It requires 100% of the people to buy into someone elses vision of a utopia. I think we all know this will never happen. Although I see absolutely nothing wrong with multiple cultures living together in perfect harmony it's been my observation that people of different cultures, nothing to do with race or skin color, separate themselves. People want o be around their own kind, people that they have something in common with. You could even look back to high school in the lunch room. Even at an all white school you had groups separating themselves. The jocks at one table, the nerds at another, the stoner table, the nobody table.... If you left everyone alone and let nature take it's course this is how it would be. Sometimes it feels like they're pour oil and water together in a bottle and shaking it until they come together. As soon as you quit shaking they separate again.

Oil and water must be shaken together(forced) so it can live together. That is what it takes some times in a country so unique, so diverse.