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Taosman;1326076; said:
When we, the voters look at any candidate, we want to see something of ourselves in them. We naturally project. That's part of the whole selection process. Logic does not always rule.
Curiously, what I see is a Lincolnesque leader. The right guy for our time. Barack does say he reads Lincoln.

:lol:

Plenty of leaders have read Lincoln. Something tells me this is your guilty liberal white ethos speaking. If say Ken Blackwell was going to be President would you see the same thing or is this the invisible man being projected upon Barack?
 
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A little White House history.
a_04.jpg




[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A slave coffle passing the Capitol grounds, 1815[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]published in A Popular History of the United States, 1876.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Library of Congress[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did slaves build the White House?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Construction on the President's House began in 1792 in Washington, D.C., a new capital situated in sparsely settled region far from a major population center. The decision to place the capital on land ceded by two slave states-Virginia and Maryland-ultimately influenced the acquisition of laborers to construct its public buildings. The D.C. commissioners, charged by Congress with building the new city under the direction of the president, initially planned to import workers from Europe to meet their labor needs. However, response to recruitment was dismal and soon they turned to African Americans - slave and free - to provide the bulk of labor that built the White House, the United States Capitol, and other early government buildings.[/FONT]
http://www.whitehousehistory.org/06/subs/06_a04.html
 
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Taosman;1326079; said:
A little White House history.
a_04.jpg




[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A slave coffle passing the Capitol grounds, 1815[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]published in A Popular History of the United States, 1876.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Library of Congress[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did slaves build the White House?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Construction on the President's House began in 1792 in Washington, D.C., a new capital situated in sparsely settled region far from a major population center. The decision to place the capital on land ceded by two slave states-Virginia and Maryland-ultimately influenced the acquisition of laborers to construct its public buildings. The D.C. commissioners, charged by Congress with building the new city under the direction of the president, initially planned to import workers from Europe to meet their labor needs. However, response to recruitment was dismal and soon they turned to African Americans - slave and free - to provide the bulk of labor that built the White House, the United States Capitol, and other early government buildings.[/FONT]
The White House Historical Association > White House FAQs, Facts & Trivia

Honestly I'm impressed with you Taos, most people of a certain type would have given me a hate filled reply.
 
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DaytonBuck;1326077; said:
Plenty of leaders have read Lincoln. Something tells me this is your guilty liberal white ethos speaking. If say Ken Blackwell was going to be President would you see the same thing ...?
If Ken Blackwell were going to be President I'd see mounds of shit in my future. So no, not so much, guilty white ethos notwithstanding.

:wink2:
 
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Murders of Black Teens Are Up 39% Since 2000-01 - WSJ.com

WASHINGTON -- Murders of African-American teenagers have risen 39% since 2000 and 2001, according to a report due out Monday.
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Associated Press Neighbors and friends mourn Jamiel Shaw Jr., 17 years old, who was shot to death in Los Angeles in March. In 2006-07, the number of homicides in which blacks ages 14 to 17 were victims rose to 927.

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Homicides in which blacks ages 14 to 17 years old were the victims rose to 927 over the two-year period of 2006-07, the last years for which statistics are available, compared with 666 during 2000-01, according to the study by criminal-justice professors at Boston's Northeastern University. The 39% increase is much greater than the rise in overall homicides, which jumped 7.4% from 2000-01 to 2006-07.
Murders rose among black teens in 2006 and 2007 as overall homicides dropped compared with the previous year. And the 2000-07 rate of increase among black teens was more than twice the rate of increase among white teens, the study found.
The authors explained that they compared two-year periods to try to limit a statistical skewing of the numbers that might have occurred if they had simply looked at differences in 2000 and 2007.
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The data confirm a pattern identified earlier this year by The Wall Street Journal, which found that while most communities in the U.S. were seeing a decline in homicides, many African-American neighborhoods were continuing to see an increase. The Northeastern University research shows that the pattern is more pronounced among juveniles.
James Alan Fox, co-author of the study, attributed the numbers to a variety of issues, including cuts in funding for local law-enforcement programs that were credited with lowering the nation's record murder rates in the 1990s. "It's hard to pin down cause and effect," Mr. Fox said.
An overwhelming proportion of the killings involve black-on-black crime. The reasons for high rates of violence in African-American communities have been the subject of debate among criminologists. Some attribute it to the migration of prison culture, with large numbers of incarcerated young men returning to their communities

continued...
 
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An overwhelming proportion of the killings involve black-on-black crime. The reasons for high rates of violence in African-American communities have been the subject of debate among criminologists. Some attribute it to the migration of prison culture, with large numbers of incarcerated young men returning to their communities

Yep. While there are many reasons for the creation of the violent inner city culture, and guilt to be handed out to both black and white leaders, at some point the historical reasons for a culture that emphasizes violence as an answer, that denigrates cooperation and compromise as "weak", that stigmatizes educational pursuits as "acting white", and that mistakenly adopts prison culture dress, talk and dysfunctional attitude as the zenith of personal expression, means shit when it is you who is held up or car jacked.

Worse, there is a chicken and egg relationship to the problem. The biggest threat to the elimination of racism is when whites perceive a certain percentage of blacks acting a certain way. But simply, when a white who has been exposed to racist views by his upbringing, the biggest thing that refutes the racist image is when he sees his black co-workers or neighbors engaging in the same sort of activities that he does, contributing the same things to the community, holding similar values, etc., and - in a shallower way - having cultural views that are close to the same. While not the biggest thing, having kids walk around with their pants down to their knees and their underwear showing does as much to reinforce racist views as anything. Call it expression if you like, but it is insulting to many to have to see people walking around in public looking like that. When you are the group trying to gain acceptance within a larger group, acting in a manner that is insulting to that larger culture is a poor strategy. Now, just because a kid dresses like a prison punk does not mean that he is a bad person. But if he gets treated with some disdain, not hired in an interview, or seen as threatening because he looks like a thug newly released from prison, you would be naive to say that his actions played no part in the mix. To some extent "fair" is beside the point. I know a gal who insisted that since guys could run around having sex with anyone they could find and be a "playboy" or "playah", they she as a female had that right too, that it did not make her any less a future wife or mother, and that is was a double standard that women could not behave in that way too. While that is true on an intellectual level, the reality of the deal was that she was viewed as the town pin cushion and whore, nobody wanted to marry her, although they would fuck her, and she had to leave town to start her life over because of the reputation. "Fair"? No. But if her goal was to find a husband in our town, then her strategy was doomed to failure. Likewise, if elimination of racism is a goal, then acting in a way that is virtually assured to frighten and repulse the majority (pants down to your knees, the only facial expression allowed to be shown to white teachers and authority figures is a menacing scowl) is not a good strategy either.

I recently saw a high school yearbook from an inner city school, and it was striking how almost none of the males smiled. And it was not just not smiling, it was as if there was a "bad ass scowl" competition was going on. All of these are little things in one sense, but they add up to a big problem in the larger sense.

So when one omnipresent view in current popular culture portrays blacks as more violent, more into a gun culture (not NRA, but settling any disputes with your Glock, having a piece on you at all times, etc), very much into drugs, un-interested in pursuing education, but having a major emphasis in "keeping it real" and continuing some questionable practices no matter the ability of an individual to climb the social economic ladder, that affects the view of the observer.

I am not saying that racist views are the fault of the black community. I am saying that some of the ways in which blacks are viewed is self created. 80 and 90 percent illegitimacy rates in some communities are the norm. A crisis of an absence of black fathers for these illegitimate kids is readily observable. I had one recent client talk about his family in his deposition. He had five baby mommas and eight kids, married to none of them, and only marginally involved in any of their lives. So what?, you rightly ask, there are many dead beat fathers who are white. And that is true. The problem is that when a certain negative characteristic becomes wide spread or involves a high percentage of any sub group, it becomes a stereotype. And stereotypes are not wrong because there is not truth in them statistically, they are wrong because they lead to attributing things to everyone in a group no matter the individual truth. The joke is that the Irish drink too much. The truth is that Ireland has one of the worst alcohol related problems statistics in the world (they battle it out with Russia for most booze consumed)

The high incidence of black males with criminal records is not solely caused by racist cops hassling young black males as some liberals have opined. Lots of brothers in the hood with no education, little parenting and few role models indeed to commit crime in disproportionate numbers. The "why" of the disintegrated nuclear family is partly the disastrous 60s and 70s AFDC policies that economically rewarded mothers who were not wed. Partly it is the way that the public schools were treated in an unequal way prior to integration. Certainly it is more influenced by the piss poor family life that arises when kids with little education or modeling give birth to kids. Without competent parenting and with few economic options, turning to a life of crime is not a poor choice, given the alternative of no income at all.

Why the economic problems? Hell, blacks have been kept down, discriminated against, refused housing in the neighborhoods I lived in, refused jobs in the skilled occupations my relatives worked at, and all together fucked over from slavery to the 60s and 70s, when it became marginally better socially, and much better from a legal standpoint, as laws said you can't get away with it as easily anymore.

What amazes me is the extent to which white America ignores how pervasive and all encompassing the discrimination was. What is equally amazing is how the black community and its leaders have a absolute blind spot as to the many problems in the inner city and urban black culture. Jessie Jackson said he was worried when he saw a black youth following him when he was jogging, and had to retract, but it was true. It is also true that if every racist in America dropped dead today - every one - the problems of violence and illegitimacy and crime and a refutation of education by black youth would continue. Essentially, the big problem is how to affect cultural change with the effects of poverty, single parent, and child parent families are seemingly intractable.

I think we need resources put in schools, with low teacher student ratios. But money will not go it. What good is it if the school has money or teachers, if the kid does not do homework, or can't do homework at home because of a lack of parental interest, too many siblings, no quiet area to do it, etc. I would have class 12 months a year, that have mandatory post class study halls in order to ensure kids do the work. I think we have to accept that some parts of our society are so broken that it is delusional to say that "well...the kid should study and if he does not it is his lack of personal responsibility" when he has no role model that gives a shit about education.

The money it takes to run the criminal justice system, to have trials, to have appeals, and to incarcerate our youth is astronomical. The only way to fix it is to put money in education. And the only way to make that education work despite the money is in some areas to take the parenting role away from the dysfunctional family and make the kid do everything at school, and have school all year long to get the advancement you need.

Without education you will get large numbers of teen deaths and an increasingly fragmented society that will fail to shake the last remnants of racism due to the perception that "black" as a gut instinct means "cause of crime". That perception, true or not true, will be an impediment to future progress in eliminating racial stereotypes if demographic statistics continue as they are.
 
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Gatorubet;1365610; said:
I think we need resources put in schools, with low teacher student ratios. But money will not go it. What good is it if the school has money or teachers, if the kid does not do homework, or can't do homework at home because of a lack of parental interest, too many siblings, no quiet area to do it, etc. I would have class 12 months a year, that have mandatory post class study halls in order to ensure kids do the work. I think we have to accept that some parts of our society are so broken that it is delusional to say that "well...the kid should study and if he does not it is his lack of personal responsibility" when he has no role model that gives a shit about education.

The money it takes to run the criminal justice system, to have trials, to have appeals, and to incarcerate our youth is astronomical. The only way to fix it is to put money in education. And the only way to make that education work despite the money is in some areas to take the parenting role away from the dysfunctional family and make the kid do everything at school, and have school all year long to get the advancement you need.

Without education you will get large numbers of teen deaths and an increasingly fragmented society that will fail to shake the last remnants of racism due to the perception that "black" as a gut instinct means "cause of crime". That perception, true or not true, will be an impediment to future progress in eliminating racial stereotypes if demographic statistics continue as they are.

Throwing money at the education system won't magically fix the problem of current "black culture". Black kids who blow off school aren't doing it because their school system sucks but rather it goes against, as you put it earlier, "keeping it real". Many black kids think school is a cop-out, and that street life is where it's at.

There has to be a major perception and attitude change. You have to convince the kids that going through 13 years of school (K-12) and then getting a job is better for them and more rewarding than just "takin' da shit you wants, yo". "Thug life" has been glamorized to the point that anything else is going against being black.
 
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MililaniBuckeye;1366491; said:
Throwing money at the education system won't magically fix the problem of current "black culture". Black kids who blow off school aren't doing it because their school system sucks but rather it goes against, as you put it earlier, "keeping it real". Many black kids think school is a cop-out, and that street life is where it's at.

There has to be a major perception and attitude change. You have to convince the kids that going through 13 years of school (K-12) and then getting a job is better for them and more rewarding than just "takin' da [censored] you wants, yo". "Thug life" has been glamorized to the point that anything else is going against being black.

Anyone who simplifies this problem to only a black issue is way off base. Today's education system in America is archaic in methodology and the expectations do not match the commitment in terms of curriculum or advances in today's technology.

The quoted statement above might be true in some cases...but it also as far off base as it can be in others. Read some of the Ruby Payne stuff...she is controversial and some folks do everything they can to poke holes in her theories, but damn, for those of us who deal with poverty-stricken kids, it sure as hell sounds very familiar.

Every kid does not want to be saved...but most do. In fact, most just want to feel important in some area of their existence. This goes for white, black, Indian...every kid wants to fit in somewhere. If they do not get this at home, they find it elsewhere...guess where that is? TV, Friends, Music...the emulate what they see because they see that as success. We just had a great staff development that went through the major influences of the decades...to paraphrase, the main influences of the 50s were Family, Church, Teachers/Coaches...at the end was TV and friends. That list has done a complete flip in today's world. Therefore, yesterday's discipline doesn't work...constantly yelling and screaming at these kids does not work. They don't hear a word of it.

The word "thug" is completely overused and completely misused. As far as keeping it real, some of you let me know when you want to come visit practice one day...we'll ride some kids home, hell maybe even go in the house with em. If any of you have ever experienced some of things you'll see and you still found moderate success, then I applaud you...and you need to meet and talk with these kids to reinforce some things for them.

Nothing in life is guaranteed...that includes hope.
 
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Not to be too off topic Grad, but I read a deal where Urban was talking about a troubled kid who was about to be launched at Utah. Inner city kid, tough kid. Well, as part of his "probation", he had to come with the Meyer family to Urban's daughter's softball games at wherever they played. Urban talked about how blown away the kid was at a simple neighborhood ballgame, because it was filled with parents, filled with grandparents, filled with siblings, and everybody was was there every game, cheering them on, and that happened even if the kid sucked at ball.

The kid had no idea what it was like to have that sort of total support from so many people. He watched them having a good time, eating hot dogs, volunteering at the snack window, and Meyer said as normal as that scene was to many people, it was like the kid was visiting Mars or another world. Coach said that you take for granted that everyone has a portion of your advantages and life experiences, and that many things and behaviors you take as a given are in fact learned behaviors that you possess because by the Grace of God you had an upbringing and people who loved you who made a point of exposing you to those things.

The kid who never had anyone in his corner, who got everything he got by his own wits and skill and strength and bluff, that kid does not know that there are other paths to getting things than that model. While I know that sounds fuzzy and warm, it is not false because it sounds hokey.

FWIW, the kid straightened up in part because he found himself with people who cared about how he did, and who kept telling him how good a person he was, how people were depending on him, and that he absolutely could make it if he went to class and followed the rules. Seems too simple, but some of what we do not understand about other's behavior is caused by our assuming that we all start with the same understanding of the rules and how life works.

That is not an excuse for bad bevavior. But it can be a means to understand "why" things happen that is more complex than labeling.
 
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Gatorubet;1366762; said:
Not to be too off topic Grad, but I read a deal where Urban was talking about a troubled kid who was about to be launched at Utah. Inner city kid, tough kid. Well, as part of his "probation", he had to come with the Meyer family to Urban's daughter's softball games at wherever they played. Urban talked about how blown away the kid was at a simple neighborhood ballgame, because it was filled with parents, filled with grandparents, filled with siblings, and everybody was was there every game, cheering them on, and that happened even if the kid sucked at ball.

The kid had no idea what it was like to have that sort of total support from so many people. He watched them having a good time, eating hot dogs, volunteering at the snack window, and Meyer said as normal as that scene was to many people, it was like the kid was visiting Mars or another world. Coach said that you take for granted that everyone has a portion of your advantages and life experiences, and that many things and behaviors you take as a given are in fact learned behaviors that you possess because by the Grace of God you had an upbringing and people who loved you who made a point of exposing you to those things.

The kid who never had anyone in his corner, who got everything he got by his own wits and skill and strength and bluff, that kid does not know that there are other paths to getting things than that model. While I know that sounds fuzzy and warm, it is not false because it sounds hokey.

FWIW, the kid straightened up in part because he found himself with people who cared about how he did, and who kept telling him how good a person he was, how people were depending on him, and that he absolutely could make it if he went to class and followed the rules. Seems too simple, but some of what we do not understand about other's behavior is caused by our assuming that we all start with the same understanding of the rules and how life works.

That is not an excuse for bad bevavior. But it can be a means to understand "why" things happen that is more complex than labeling.

Absolutely. I have kids on my team who see the ocean for the first time when we travel to Myrtle Beach to play a game. Its amazing.
 
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osugrad21;1366719; said:
Anyone who simplifies this problem to only a black issue is way off base. Today's education system in America is archaic in methodology and the expectations do not match the commitment in terms of curriculum or advances in today's technology.
Never said it was a black-only issue. I was referring to gator's comments that were based on the article that jimotis4heisman posted on the huge rise in black-on-black youth violence. Hence, the focus of the discussion was indeed on black youth. Of course poverty and under-priviledge encompasses kids of other enthnicity...hell, they have a ton of such kids here in Hawaii (most of whom are of Polynesian ancestry). While I do agree that the general educational system needs serious upgrading, there are other factors that come into play (not being to discipline kids any more, etc.).


osugrad21;1366719; said:
The word "thug" is completely overused and completely misused. As far as keeping it real, some of you let me know when you want to come visit practice one day...we'll ride some kids home, hell maybe even go in the house with em. If any of you have ever experienced some of things you'll see and you still found moderate success, then I applaud you...and you need to meet and talk with these kids to reinforce some things for them.
Most kids of limited resources aren't fortunate to have a great, caring coach like you (I'm not being a smart ass here...I'm serious) and a great sports staff who will do the thing you do for kids. You and your staff and fellow teachers are to be lauded for your efforts. That still doesn't change how it is in many, if not most, other less-than-affluent areas.

A friend of mine ('69 OSU grad who is an Asian lady born and raised in Hawaii who lived in Ohio for 35 years until recently moving back here) told me some stories about what she saw and had to go through as a counselor in a Cincinnati middle school. A bunch of 12- and 13-year-old girls who were knocked up (virtually all of whom were black) who strutted around like being pregnant was a badge of honor. The majority of the kids she counseled were disrespectful, argumentative, and apathetic towards school. She quit after several years after becoming totally disenchanted with counseling because she tought she was doing little more than banging her head against the wall. The attitude of "I don't give a fuck" was widespread among the kids, and I think that's one of the biggest problems among "disadvatanged" youths today and is what needs to be addressed.
 
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MililaniBuckeye;1366780; said:
The attitude of "I don't give a [censored]" was widespread among the kids, and I think that's one of the biggest problems among "disadvatanged" youths today and is what needs to be addressed.

I agree...but I also see it in many of the folks in charge of teaching them otherwise. Not saying your friend was one of those at all, but I've witnessed so many kids who had that front up...only to drop it once they realized we weren't lying nor were we going to abandon them.

With the pregancies, I'd like to know more about the situations...if they are anything like the many I've seen, the kids were taught that pregnancies equate not only to free money but also to what they will "end up like anyway" Children are possssions in poverty...pregnant children not only ensure more possessions, but guarantee that the original will not be leaving the family. Again, Ruby Payne is some fascinating reading. Her theories have their faults of course...but she nails a good portion of what I see.

Poverty is a vicious cycle and it is one that will rip your heart out.
 
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Sadly even the holidays bring out the worst in some people.

On Christmas eve, I was personally hit with a racial slur over a parking spot. This individual was not even in the same lane as I was when I was parking and I only saw her when she was pulling up behind my car as I got out.

She yelled at me for taking the spot, ending with "You're nothing but a faggot ass white boy".

My response was better and was in no way racial.

People of all races only see race and it's a worldwide problem, not just a US problem (despite what you'll see on our all-knowing news networks and I say that with the utmost sarcasm). We can all claim we do not, but it's a human failing. People will use their race to their advantage, against another person and/or as a way to exploit their situation. Sad as it is, only the individual can fix the problem. The government can't and won't do squat to fix the problem because the problem can't be fixed by a government program or a grant or any of that other garbage.

Governments can't change the perception of people, only the person who holds that perception can change. The Russians tried and failed. The Germans tried and killed millions of people.
 
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BuckeyeMike80;1366824; said:
Sadly even the holidays bring out the worst in some people.

On Christmas eve, I was personally hit with a racial slur over a parking spot. This individual was not even in the same lane as I was when I was parking and I only saw her when she was pulling up behind my car as I got out.

She yelled at me for taking the spot, ending with "You're nothing but a faggot ass white boy".

After you yelled, "I'm much more than that lady!!...", what'd she say? :p
 
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I don't want fall into the trap of identifying with an -ism, but in this case, I totally side with the libertarian interpretation and prescriptions for the problem of rampant poverty in most black neighborhoods.

It's important to realize that in order to mold youngsters into productive members of society, it's crucial to provide work opportunities commensurate with their level of skill at an early age. The minimum wage law hurts these young people the most, because most often they are the ones who lack the skill to be paid at or above the min. wage. By seeking to promote greater equality in outcome, the law has in fact promoted much greater inequality in opportunity, which in the end caused the original objective to fail as well.

The best thing that can happen to the inner city are $7 dollar and hour sweat shops that allow able bodied individuals to work. If we are serious about shipping jobs back to the US and getting people out of poverty, this is the tough pill that we have to swallow.
 
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