Cleveland Cavs (2016 NBA Champions)

[3074326]

Shoddy logic? What, you mean, he used actual statistics? Yeah, terrible logic...

Let's just go with the conclusory statement that the guy is just like Dwyane Wade because he is. We don't need to back it up... well, because we can't. So we'll just pretend all comparisons are illogical... except the ones that compare Wade to Waiters because they fit even without facts.

Stats only show some of the whole story. There are far too many variables.

What does Brandon Paul having the game of his life have to do with Dion Waiters? Absolutely nothing. You're right, there is no shoddy logic in that guy's argument because there is no logic at all.

Is 4 high for Waiters? Yes. But please, for the love of all that is holy, stop making it sound like this is the worst decision in the history of the universe. I'm starting to think the only thing that would make you happy is if the Cavs somehow went back in time and picked Michael Jordan in the first round and Shaq in the second.

It wasn't that bad of a draft. According to nearly everyone other than Cavs fans who wouldn't have been happy no matter what.

I don't mean this post to be offensive toward you.. it's just the same shit every time I open it and reality is never as bad as it seems like it is in this thread.

 

[TooTall]

I'm starting to think the only thing that would make you happy is if the Cavs somehow went back in time and picked Michael Jordan in the first round and Shaq in the second.

Well, now that you say it.... It sure would have been nice.

 

[billmac91]

Stats only show some of the whole story. There are far too many variables.

What does Brandon Paul having the game of his life have to do with Dion Waiters? Absolutely nothing. You're right, there is no shoddy logic in that guy's argument because there is no logic at all.

Is 4 high for Waiters? Yes. But please, for the love of all that is holy, stop making it sound like this is the worst decision in the history of the universe. I'm starting to think the only thing that would make you happy is if the Cavs somehow went back in time and picked Michael Jordan in the first round and Shaq in the second.

It wasn't that bad of a draft. According to nearly everyone other than Cavs fans who wouldn't have been happy no matter what.

I don't mean this post to be offensive toward you.. it's just the same [Mark May] every time I open it and reality is never as bad as it seems like it is in this thread.

People are allowed to have differing opinions too. I happen to think that article draws some very valid points.

To have 4 of the top 33 picks in the draft and come away with Dion Waiters and Tyler Zeller was beyond disappointing for me. No one is going to take my gut feel for a player over Chris Grant, but I also feel I have a pretty good eye for talent and have my own opinion. OH10 has proven to have good takes (much better than most) especially in regards to basketball, and I don't think he's gone too far at all in critiquing what the Cavs did on draft night.

For every analyst that thinks the Cavs did well, there is one out there that thinks they bombed. Only time will tell. In the end, I hope I am 100% wrong just like OH10 I would assume.

 

[tsteele316]

People are allowed to have differing opinions too. I happen to think that article draws some very valid points.

To have 4 of the top 33 picks in the draft and come away with Dion Waiters and Tyler Zeller was beyond disappointing for me. No one is going to take my gut feel for a player over Chris Grant, but I also feel I have a pretty good eye for talent and have my own opinion. OH10 has proven to have good takes (much better than most) especially in regards to basketball, and I don't think he's gone too far at all in critiquing what the Cavs did on draft night.

For every analyst that thinks the Cavs did well, there is one out there that thinks they bombed. Only time will tell. In the end, I hope I am 100% wrong just like OH10 I would assume.

please show the one to one ratio of draft analysts that think the cavs screwed the pooch. you won't. your one to one ratio is limited to whiny cleveland fans that will be pissed regardless of the outcome.

 

[tsteele316]

Digging? The Advocate is my home county paper.



I knew a guy in high school that had the same style of play as Wade. I mean, he wasn't nearly as good, but they had the same "style." So there's that. And please, if I'm cherry picking, please show me the big picture stats that back up your attempt to sell yourself on this pick being the next DWade. There aren't any so I understand why you haven't. But, please, try.

The true Princeton offense is based on shooters being able to spread the floor. It relies on spacing. Kyrie is probably the only guy on the court whose shot will command respect. That's going to allow the defense to compress down closer to the paint, which causes problems for effective penetration. The players must also learn to be effective without the ball in their hands so they can spot up. Never seen that from Waiters. These are issues.

Now it's been said by Chris Grant that this was Byron's pick and that he had Waiters #2 on his board after Davis. So clearly Byron thinks he can fit into his version. Fine. But I thought it was strange to see the team's GM basically divorce himself from the pick - which makes it seem like Grant wasn't entirely on board after he failed to trade up for Beal.

1. the stats to back waiters efficiency and effectiveness have been cited repeatedly here. you just ignored them because they shot down your preconceived notion.

2. the princeton as cleveland runs it relies on movement, having two guards that can handle the ball, effective cuts and spacing. being a spot up shooter is not a high priority. however, a guy that shoots 36% from 3 (as good as your boy barnes btw) is not a liability. so again, i don't know where you're getting this from.

 

[billmac91]

please show the one to one ratio of draft analysts that think the cavs screwed the pooch. you won't. your one to one ratio is limited to whiny cleveland fans that will be [censored]ed regardless of the outcome.

That's just not a fair statement at all though. OH10 hasn't been some whiny Cleveland fan. Cleveland fans are also known as being some of the smartest most passionate fans. I think it's remarkable Cleveland had the second highest viewership of the draft in the country. I also think it's remarkable my 86 year old grandmother stated the following about LeBron during the OKC series: "I can't root for him or stand him, but he's a real specimen of a man. He's just a bull at the rim". But that is Cleveland for you....

If the Cavs had reached on Drummond, Barnes (who I am not a fan of but would have understood), or Thomas Robinson (who is redundant with Tristan but a great value at 4) I wouldn't have liked what happened, but I would have understood any of those picks and not bitched about who they took. I think a lot of fans would have been the same way....

I also hated trading away 2 picks to swap with Dallas on Tyler Zeller who I don't believe will ever be a difference maker in the NBA. A solid back-up, sure, but I think there were future all-stars taken in the back-half of the first round.

It's a difference of opinion...people are allowed to have them.

 

[tsteele316]

That's just not a fair statement at all though. OH10 hasn't been some whiny Cleveland fan. Cleveland fans are also known as being some of the smartest most passionate fans.

If the Cavs had reached on Drummond, Barnes (who I am not a fan of but would have understood), or Thomas Robinson (who is redundant with Tristan but a great value at 4) I wouldn't have liked what happened, but I would have understood any of those picks and not bitched about who they took. I think a lot of fans would have been the same way....

I also hated trading away 2 picks to swap with Dallas on Tyler Zeller who I don't believe will ever be a difference maker in the NBA. A solid back-up, sure, but I think there were future all-stars taken in the back-half of the first round.

It's a difference of opinion...people are allowed to have them.

so, you don't have a list of draft analysts to match your claim like you asserted then?

i also think you grossly exaggerate both the talent at the back end of the draft and the actual value of 2nd round picks. this isn't the nfl.

 

[stowfan]

Digging? The Advocate is my home county paper.



I knew a guy in high school that had the same style of play as Wade. I mean, he wasn't nearly as good, but they had the same "style." So there's that. And please, if I'm cherry picking, please show me the big picture stats that back up your attempt to sell yourself on this pick being the next DWade. There aren't any so I understand why you haven't. But, please, try.

The true Princeton offense is based on shooters being able to spread the floor. It relies on spacing. Kyrie is probably the only guy on the court whose shot will command respect. That's going to allow the defense to compress down closer to the paint, which causes problems for effective penetration. The players must also learn to be effective without the ball in their hands so they can spot up. Never seen that from Waiters. These are issues.

Now it's been said by Chris Grant that this was Byron's pick and that he had Waiters #2 on his board after Davis. So clearly Byron thinks he can fit into his version. Fine. But I thought it was strange to see the team's GM basically divorce himself from the pick - which makes it seem like Grant wasn't entirely on board after he failed to trade up for Beal.

One of Andy's strong points is the ability to hit an open 10 to to 15 foot shot. Zeller can also shoot, he canned 80% of his free throws, compare that to Thompson's 55%, Andy 68%, and even Jamison''s 68%. If the players covering Zeller and Andy want to stay in the lane to stop the Cavs' guards from penetrating you will see the Princeton run to perfection.

Also, I'll repeat myself, last year Waiters had a higher 3pt% the either Beal, or Barnes. Counting Irving, that's four shooters. I'm beginning to think you never had a girlfriend given your ability to talk yourself out of anything

 

[billmac91]

so, you don't have a list of draft analysts to match your claim like you asserted then?

i also think you grossly exaggerate both the talent at the back end of the draft and the actual value of 2nd round picks. this isn't the nfl.

NBADraftnet/Foxsports - C- The less Waiters worked out, the higher his stock soared. By the time the draft rolled around the myth of Dion Waiters had grown to legendary status. The Cavs swung for the fences with this one, passing on Thomas Robinson, Harrison Barnes and Andre Drummond. For a team with such a talented and proficient point guard, adding a ball dominant, undersized combo guard so high doesn't seem to make much sense. Obviously Waiters shows a lot of potential as a go-to scorer, but the fact that the team never worked him out has to raise some eyebrows. After their questionable pick at 4, they followed that up with a trade that netted them a solid borderline starting center. But they gave away picks that could have yielded them Arnett Moultrie, Draymond Green and Doron Lamb. While Zeller seems like a sure bet, for a team that's rebuilding with youth, rolling the dice on those three seems like a better option.

Ball Don't Lie/Yahoo - C

You'd like to give this one an "incomplete." At best, you'd like to bow to the sorts of people who spend their entire lockout-induced time off and then lottery-bound regular season paying attention to NCAA hoops and charting out just who to take with the fourth and (after a trade with Dallas) 17th overall picks in the draft. You don't want to be flip in a few paragraphs after the people who are paid to do this spent months preparing.
Waiters was a surprise, though. He had some great individual workouts, but great athletes tend to do that. Darko Milicic did that, but so did Rajon Rondo. Waiters was a tough as nails wing who struggled to stay on the court during his last year at Syracuse, but perhaps the NBA style (and all those resultant free throws) is exactly what he needs. Some guys are just born to play in the NBA, and his NCAA production doesn't matter.
Zeller is attempting to break the decades-long streak of wasted draft picks on 7-footers in the middle of the first round. If he's a capable rotation player, or eighth man, then at 17th overall this was a fine selection, mainly because that position is so hard to fill. The Cavs need depth badly and all those traded second-round picks could have possibly helped that, but the second round is a crapshoot. Zeller's no guarantee either, but we appreciate Cleveland's moxie.
Wherever it takes them, I suppose.

SBNation - D

Cleveland Cavaliers
Selected SG Dion Waiters No. 4; Traded Nos. 24, 33, 34 for corpse of Kelenna Azubuike and the rights to No. 17 (Tyler Zeller)
OK, it's one thing to reach for Waiters in the top five the exact same way they reached for Tristan Thompson last year, but then to deal three picks in a shockingly deep draft to pick up Tyler Zeller?
What?
Why not take Harrison Barnes -- who's at least four inches taller than Waiters and more athletic -- and use the other three picks to fill out your rotation with players like Perry Jones (24), Draymond Green (33) and Quincy Miller (34)?
The Cavs already have their franchise superstar, but the rest of their rotation isn't quite there yet. So a draft like this was perfect for them: there was only one franchise superstar, but there were tons of great rotation players. And I still don't understand how all they wound up with was Waiters and Zeller. Maybe Waiters is way better than we realize, but probably not, right? And maybe Zeller is something more than a career backup that they traded three picks for, but... GRADE: D

I don't know..it sure doesn't take much to find a lot of negative reviews on the Cavs draft. Those were all found on the first page of google under the search "NBA Draft Grades".

It's kind of besides the point though. I trust my judgement over SBNation, Ball Don't Lie/Yahoo, and any other talking head. I, just like OH10, can view this draft negatively just like we can view the drafting of a 29 year old QB ridiculous, the drafting of Brady Quinn embarrassing, the move up 1 spot for a tight end when everyone knew Detroit wanted a WR, the slide back for Phil Taylor when we're in desperate need of elite skill players, or trading our 2 best pitching prospects for a struggling one year wonder. It's all fair...nothing OH10 has said is dramatically out of bounds. I think the reference to needing (4) 3 point shooting threats in Byron Scotts offense was incorrect, but in general his analysis and points of reference have been completely fair.

 

[TooTall]

NBADraftnet/Foxsports - C- The less Waiters worked out, the higher his stock soared. By the time the draft rolled around the myth of Dion Waiters had grown to legendary status. The Cavs swung for the fences with this one, passing on Thomas Robinson, Harrison Barnes and Andre Drummond. For a team with such a talented and proficient point guard, adding a ball dominant, undersized combo guard so high doesn't seem to make much sense. Obviously Waiters shows a lot of potential as a go-to scorer, but the fact that the team never worked him out has to raise some eyebrows. After their questionable pick at 4, they followed that up with a trade that netted them a solid borderline starting center. But they gave away picks that could have yielded them Arnett Moultrie, Draymond Green and Doron Lamb. While Zeller seems like a sure bet, for a team that's rebuilding with youth, rolling the dice on those three seems like a better option.

Couldn't agree more with this one. So is Zeller the new Z? Marketing strategy?

 

[DubCoffman62]

I understand why they took Waiter, they wanted another good ball handler and that's fine. Still, I would've taken Barnes, Rivers or Ross, all better all around players I believe. But I'm not the GM, I'm just some schmuck sitting behind a keyboard.

 

[billmac91]

I understand why they took Waiter, they wanted another good ball handler and that's fine. Still, I would've taken Barnes, Rivers or Ross, all better all around players I believe. But I'm not the GM, I'm just some schmuck sitting behind a keyboard.

Just looking at that list of players I'd say:

Rivers jump-shot is way too inconsistent while his size is scary to most GM's at SG. While he is good at getting to the rim, he is thin as a rail. At least Waiters is 220 lbs and has plus athleticism. Austin Rivers has poor shooting form, looks fragile, and a lot of people think he will need to learn PG to be effective in the league.

Terrence Ross has a silky jump-shot, but he couldn't get 1 bench-press up in the NBA combine. Again, super fragile. His handle isn't very good either. In the system the Cavs want to run, having 2 ball-handlers is pretty critical. Ross as a 2G in Clevelands system would have been ineffective and forced Kyrie to control the ball at all times. I also think that is why a lot of people have speculated that Bradley Beal may have been ranked below Waiters on the Cavs draft board. Beals handle isn't at the level you'd expect a 2G to be at.

I've never liked Harrison Barnes truthfully. I wouldn't have hated him with the 4th pick because I think his floor is somewhere around Johnny Salmons. His shot will always be pretty smooth although his handle is a joke for a small forward. I think his defense will be pretty solid though. His relationship with Kyrie would have been a pretty big positive as well. In the end, I would have understood the pick, although I would have preferred Drummond or Thomas Robinson at 4.

 

[tsteele316]

I don't know..it sure doesn't take much to find a lot of negative reviews on the Cavs draft. Those were all found on the first page of google under the search "NBA Draft Grades".

It's kind of besides the point though. I trust my judgement over SBNation, Ball Don't Lie/Yahoo, and any other talking head. I, just like OH10, can view this draft negatively just like we can view the drafting of a 29 year old QB ridiculous, the drafting of Brady Quinn embarrassing, the move up 1 spot for a tight end when everyone knew Detroit wanted a WR, the slide back for Phil Taylor when we're in desperate need of elite skill players, or trading our 2 best pitching prospects for a struggling one year wonder. It's all fair...nothing OH10 has said is dramatically out of bounds. I think the reference to needing (4) 3 point shooting threats in Byron Scotts offense was incorrect, but in general his analysis and points of reference have been completely fair.

so your argument is that you're going to be typcial miserable cleveland fans, and that is justification enough to back assertions based on flawed logic and incorrect assumptions?

by the by, both of those top pitching prospects got demoted to the minors, one of which got sent back to AA, and greg little had more receptions than julio jones, who made atlanta statistically worse on offense last year. but those comments are for different cleveland whining threads.

 

[3074326]

People are allowed to have differing opinions too. I happen to think that article draws some very valid points.

Its good points are about his attitude. Beyond that, I don't really think there were any good points. What one player does against one team vs. what another did to the same team is such a ridiculous basis for an argument that it's not even worth discussing most of the time. There are way too many variables.

I'm not claiming to be a basketball expert. You and OH1O are more knowledgeable than I am, I can pretty much assure you that. That being said, I still don't see this as a horrendous pick. I'd rather them get Waiters, who at least has the potential to be a great fit, than someone who is just going to be average. They need someone really good to be competitive. Might as well go for it.

 

[stowfan]

I understand why they took Waiter, they wanted another good ball handler and that's fine. Still, I would've taken Barnes, Rivers or Ross, all better all around players I believe. But I'm not the GM, I'm just some schmuck sitting behind a keyboard.

Barnes is still the real mystery to me. During his final year in college, the report on Barnes was, a good shooter who can't create his own shot, and he averaged only 5.4 rebounds per game. He showed up for the combine, jumps out of the gym, and does great in all the drills. Just my humble opinion, but I'm happy he wasn't the pick.

OH1O, who would you have taken?