Cleveland Cavs (2016 NBA Champions)

[exhawg]

Minnesota has the leverage because they are a "seller" with a unique item in a "market" with multiple "buyers". Until that changes, they can set the "price" - they have the leverage. Minnesota still has Kevin Love because the Cavs haven't met Minnesota's price. The Cavs still have Andrew Wiggins because the Cavs haven't met Minnesota's price. It's all about the price. As long as Minnesota can set the price - as long as they can reject a buyer's offer - Minnesota has the leverage.

You can certainly test this concept in the "real world". Find an art dealer who is selling a unique piece of art by a famous artist (say Picasso). Find out the dealer's best price. Then offer him fifty cents on the dollar. Then spend the next hour arguing with the dealer about why your "price" is right and his "price" is wrong. Use all the "leverage" that you've got. When the dealer finally kicks you out of his gallery, ask yourself why he still has his Picasso and you still have your money.


Just because you're "thrilled" with your position, doesn't mean that you have the leverage. Don't confuse the two things.

As we both agree (I think), Minnesota loses their leverage after the trade deadline, because at that point there is no longer any "market" for Kevin Love (i.e., there can be no demand for him, or supply of him for that matter). But as the market approaches its "close", demand may increase, sometimes dramatically, which benefits the seller (look at trade deadline deals in baseball, or draft day deals in football, for examples of this). Minnesota is not losing their leverage until the trade deadline.

And regardless of what happens, Minnesota will never be in the position where they MUST trade Kevin Love. As OH1O said above, Minnesota may be perfectly happy to let Kevin Love go in free agency. In the world of the NBA, sometimes it is better to get nothing for a player than to get too little (because of the draft lottery, it is better to be bad than to be mediocre).


Cleveland teams have been "headed" various places for the past fifty years. I'm sick of the journey - now I want to be THERE. No more "maybe next year". No more "five-year plans". No more banking on prospects. The Cavs have a monumental opportunity - don't blow it by playing for the future. The future is NOW. Get it done.

I disagree in that it's better to make a bad move for cheap young players than to lose an all star for nothing on a team that has little chance of making the playoffs or keeping the player. Do you think if Lebron had told the Cavs 5 years ago that he was going to Miami after the season they would have held onto him the whole season or maximize what they could get for him?

The way I see it the Wolves currently value Love at a level, we'll say 100. The other trade offers they have received so far are 50's. I'd say the Waiters/Bennett/picks offer would be a 60. Wiggins/Bennett/pick would give you the 100 that the Wolves want, but as we get closer to the deadline the Wolves value of Love will likely go down as they realize that they are a few months from him being worth 0. Unless someone else comes in and offers more than a 60 the Cavs can wait it out. All of these reports coming out of Minnesota make them seem pretty desperate to get the Cavs to add Wiggins to the offer, but hopefully Griffin is smart enough to not fall for it. I just don't see why it's worth paying 100 for something when nobody else is willing to pay more than 50.

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

IF Love is indeed letting the other teams know it's Cavs and Cavs only.... it's all moot
because no one is going to pose a deal beyond a '50' for a 1 season rental / no hope of signing Love
thus they give away significant assets in the trade plus lose Love.. double whammy... they're toast for years

Having to wait till Jan/Feb wouldn't be the worst.. because Cavs would have a chance to evaluate what they have
Will Waiters blend in .. How much has Bennett improved... it'll permit them to adjust the offer

IF we get Love and keep Wiggins... those 2 #1s are much less important to us.. we'd already have a nice blend of youth and veteranship
for a 5 year championship run and another 5 years of being very significant thereafter

I'll call Saunders and explain it to him

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

We'll know if Love is truly myopic by the number of teams and quality of the offers
If teams drop out and/or offers get medicore... we know it's real.. and vice versa

 

[BuckeyeMafia]

And regardless of what happens, Minnesota will never be in the position where they MUST trade Kevin Love. As OH1O said above, Minnesota may be perfectly happy to let Kevin Love go in free agency. In the world of the NBA, sometimes it is better to get nothing for a player than to get too little (because of the draft lottery, it is better to be bad than to be mediocre).

If they're determined to bottom out for the next five years it still makes more sense to have Waiters and Bennett than to get nothing at all for Love. Waiters and Bennett can be dealt for picks (likely protected first rounders).

 

[Buckeye737]

You can certainly test this concept in the "real world". Find an art dealer who is selling a unique piece of art by a famous artist (say Picasso). Find out the dealer's best price. Then offer him fifty cents on the dollar. Then spend the next hour arguing with the dealer about why your "price" is right and his "price" is wrong. Use all the "leverage" that you've got. When the dealer finally kicks you out of his gallery, ask yourself why he still has his Picasso and you still have your money.

I love using analogies, so I like this, but I think you have to state one more important point in this scenario. The art dealer will lose the piece of art permanently if he doesn't sell it within a number of months. That significantly diminishes the leverage of the seller/owner. The art will then go up "for auction", so as a prospective buyer, your only worry is that the seller finds a better offer during his last months in possession of the asset. Also, what are you chances of attaining the asset at auction.

If absolutely nothing happens with Kevin Love before the trade deadline, the Cavs will be in the exact same position they are in now and the Timberwolves will be in a far worse position.

At this point, I would prefer to see the Cavs go after someone like (and specifically) Robin Lopez. Not a great scorer, but a true center with surprisingly good rim protection.

 

[buckeyesin07]

Minnesota has the leverage because they are a "seller" with a unique item in a "market" with multiple "buyers". Until that changes, they can set the "price" - they have the leverage. Minnesota still has Kevin Love because the Cavs haven't met Minnesota's price. The Cavs still have Andrew Wiggins because the Cavs haven't met Minnesota's price. It's all about the price. As long as Minnesota can set the price - as long as they can reject a buyer's offer - Minnesota has the leverage.

You can certainly test this concept in the "real world". Find an art dealer who is selling a unique piece of art by a famous artist (say Picasso). Find out the dealer's best price. Then offer him fifty cents on the dollar. Then spend the next hour arguing with the dealer about why your "price" is right and his "price" is wrong. Use all the "leverage" that you've got. When the dealer finally kicks you out of his gallery, ask yourself why he still has his Picasso and you still have your money.


Just because you're "thrilled" with your position, doesn't mean that you have the leverage. Don't confuse the two things.

As we both agree (I think), Minnesota loses their leverage after the trade deadline, because at that point there is no longer any "market" for Kevin Love (i.e., there can be no demand for him, or supply of him for that matter). But as the market approaches its "close", demand may increase, sometimes dramatically, which benefits the seller (look at trade deadline deals in baseball, or draft day deals in football, for examples of this). Minnesota is not losing their leverage until the trade deadline.

And regardless of what happens, Minnesota will never be in the position where they MUST trade Kevin Love. As OH1O said above, Minnesota may be perfectly happy to let Kevin Love go in free agency. In the world of the NBA, sometimes it is better to get nothing for a player than to get too little (because of the draft lottery, it is better to be bad than to be mediocre).


Cleveland teams have been "headed" various places for the past fifty years. I'm sick of the journey - now I want to be THERE. No more "maybe next year". No more "five-year plans". No more banking on prospects. The Cavs have a monumental opportunity - don't blow it by playing for the future. The future is NOW. Get it done.

You've attributed multiple quotes to me that aren't mine. Calm down a bit.

 

[TooTall]

If Minnesota doesn't have leverage, then why is Kevin Love still a member of the Timberwolves?

Because the Timberwolves are allowing a moron to make the calls? Let's not discount who it is trying to pull the strings in Minnesota. How did Flip do during his time with the Pistons? I seem to remember a pathetically weak Eastern Conference that he couldn't find a way to win when it mattered. Or trying to build the Wizards into a contender? I have no doubt in my mind, Flip will eventually crumble and take whatever the Cavaliers are WILLING to offer. If not, they lose Love in a year, with nothing in return but cap space.

 

[MaxBuck]

Cleveland teams have been "headed" various places for the past fifty years. I'm sick of the journey - now I want to be THERE. No more "maybe next year". No more "five-year plans". No more banking on prospects. The Cavs have a monumental opportunity - don't blow it by playing for the future. The future is NOW. Get it done.

Desperation is a stinky cologne.

 

[MaxBuck]

...randolph better then love? no way either...kevin love is basically the same player except he can shoot 3's...I will give them davis, aldridge and dirk...but it all depends on what you are trying to get from a player on your team...davis can obviously block the [Mark May] out of anyone and rebound and put up decent offensive #'s...but he cant stretch the offense by hitting 3's...aldridge is great all around and can shoot consistently anywhere inside the 3 pt arc...nowitzki has a great all around game even at his age now I would still put him slightly ahead of love

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough; I don't think Randolph is better than Kevin Love; I think they're in the same general category, but Love is the better player.

I seriously do think David Lee is, right at this moment, a better player than Love, and regard Lee as one of the most underappreciated players in the League.

 

[buckeyesin07]

It's going to be glorious if the reports are true that Love has told the T-Wolves he only wants to go to Cleveland, that Minnesota is forced to trade him straight up for Waiters, or a pick, etc., and it later comes to light that Minnesota turned down the package of Bennett, Waiters, and one or more picks. Like I predicted in an earlier post, Flip Saunders will then have gone all Flip Saunders.

 

[kujirakira]

Minnesota has the leverage because they are a "seller" with a unique item in a "market" with multiple "buyers". Until that changes, they can set the "price" - they have the leverage. Minnesota still has Kevin Love because the Cavs haven't met Minnesota's price. The Cavs still have Andrew Wiggins because the Cavs haven't met Minnesota's price. It's all about the price. As long as Minnesota can set the price - as long as they can reject a buyer's offer - Minnesota has the leverage.

You can certainly test this concept in the "real world". Find an art dealer who is selling a unique piece of art by a famous artist (say Picasso). Find out the dealer's best price. Then offer him fifty cents on the dollar. Then spend the next hour arguing with the dealer about why your "price" is right and his "price" is wrong. Use all the "leverage" that you've got. When the dealer finally kicks you out of his gallery, ask yourself why he still has his Picasso and you still have your money.

It's a very poor analogy. An art dealer has exclusive rights irrespective of time to the merchandise, and the merchandise is an inanimate object.
Those two things are where Minnesota's leverage falls apart; if the other team has the balls to not flinch first. If they hold him, then they lose him for nothing. Moreover, he has the power to effectively kill any other deals himself.
I don't know what Love's mindset really is because I think S.A.S. is nothing more than a fast talker; a black Mel Kiper Jr. of Basketball. I mean all the shit he was talking about how Cleveland wouldn't / shouldn't have had a chance at LeBron just shows how amazing his sources aren't and that most of it is ESPiN creating news instead of reporting news. He and Skip love playing those games.
That said, *if* Love is of a mindset to go to Cleveland ... and he makes this effectively known to other suitors, then Minnesota loses a lot of leverage.
Even without that piece, every day that goes by without him getting traded, Minnesota loses a little more leverage.
In this way, I think signing Wiggins now was a good idea considering how ESPiN was trying to generate some buzz with other trade offers. Now every one of those will sit on ice for 30 days and have a good chance of killing some bidding wars if Cleveland plays their cards right.

 

[y0yoyoin]

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough; I don't think Randolph is better than Kevin Love; I think they're in the same general category, but Love is the better player.

I seriously do think David Lee is, right at this moment, a better player than Love, and regard Lee as one of the most underappreciated players in the League.

it wasnt clear to me because i assumed you were saying the opinion of the nba radio guy was saying the said players were all better then love, and love is clearly a better player offensively then randolph, just look at the stats...defensively i will lean towards randolph no question...as far as david lee you can compare the stats but he played 10 less games last year...both have had some injuries, Love clearly having more that has hampered his career...but I will take Love over Lee just because Love is younger, has a better relationship with Kyrie and can stretch the floor better based on his ability to hit 3's

Randolph:
17.4 PTS/game, 10.1 REB/game, 2.5 AST/game, 0.3 BLK/game, .100% 3PT%, .742 FT%, .467 FG%

Love:
26.1 PTS/game, 12.5 REB/game, 4.4 AST/game, 0.5 BLK/game, .376 3PT%, .821 FT%, .457 FG%

 

[y0yoyoin]

BTW lebron just said hes going back to #23

 

[NFBuck]

ESPN's Stephen A. Smith earlier reported Love is making teams aware he only wants to be traded to Cleveland.

 

[MaxBuck]

... I will take Love over Lee just because Love is younger, has a better relationship with Kyrie and can stretch the floor better based on his ability to hit 3's

I wasn't trying to argue that I'd necessarily rather have any of the named players than Love; simply refuting the notion that Love is one of the ten best current NBA players. No question, I'd really like to see Love as a Cavalier, but not if it takes losing Wiggins to get him.