Cleveland Cavs (2016 NBA Champions)

[tsteele316]

An interesting point I saw somewhere...and now I can't remember where...if Wiggins was truly on the table at any point, Minny would have jumped at the chance and this trade would already be done.

of course they would. that's also why there were twitterings this week that minny was willing to deal with boston at a "discount" because saunders like olynk so much and like boston's draft picks better.

this whole negotiating through the media tactic is going to blow up in minny's face, and they are going to end up with tristan thompson, that rabble of utah outcasts, and a 2nd round pick in 2019 for their efforts.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

An interesting point I saw somewhere...and now I can't remember where...if Wiggins was truly on the table at any point, Minny would have jumped at the chance and this trade would already be done.

The Cavs' recent signing of Wiggins may indicate that the deal is done in principle. Wiggins is a much better trade chip if he is worth 5.5 million against the salary cap.

LJB - honest question here, you've been by far the most vocal of get Love at all cost...
How does adding Love to the current roster make us any better than the Miami team from the past several years?

Better than four straight finals appearances and two titles? Do I need any better than that?

BTW, Miami's four straight finals appearances isn't unprecedented, but it is rare. In the history of the NBA, only three other teams have made four or more finals appearances in a row: 1957-66 Boston Celtics with Bill Russell (10 appearances, 9 titles); 1982-85 Los Angeles Lakers with Magic, Kareem, Worthy, etc. (4 appearances, 2 titles); and 1984-1987 Boston Celtics with Bird, McHale, Parrish, etc. (4 appearances, 2 titles). In other words, three of the greatest dynasties in NBA history, along with the 1991-98 Chicago Bulls, who probably would've had eight in a row if Jordan hadn't "retired" in the middle of their run.

Yes, the other than the "other" Big 2 are younger but haven't been to the playoffs. You've still got a team where Lebron is the only guy who plays defense. The bench is still a huge question mark.

See Piney's post, quoted below. He pretty much nails it:

Alot of people keep saying if we trade for Love, we would have nobody for the future on this team. I want to expand on that topic with a breakdown.

I am going on the assumption that a trade for Kevin Love will be Wiggins/Bennett and 1st round picks. I doubt Andy or Tristan get traded because they are LeBron people and if they do, we are getting more players. But for simplicity sake, I am just going by the main rumored trade.

If that trade happens this is what the Cavs roster looks like:

PG - Irving & Dellavedora
SG - Waiters/Joe Harris/Ray Allen* (If he signs)
SF - LeBron/Mike Miller & James Jones
PF - Kevin Love/Tristan
C - Varejao & Haywood

Really the only need left then is a Center. I hope we get one in the Kevin Love trade, but there could be something else out there that I am not aware of. But those 3 non-guarenteed guys we got from Utah could be sent to get some body at center.

So say we go with these guys this year... not bad, just one glaring hole at Center.

Next offseason Andy becomes a free agent. Good guess he comes back at a reduced salary to stay with LeBron. Tristan is due an extention too. And Love will opt out and re-sign a max deal with us. Only losses will be Allen & James Jones, but they could come back at vet minimums.

So it isn't like we have to make a ton of moves to fill positions. Our big move is the Haywood contract, we can bring in something. What? Well... that center hole is still there. Plus if we do lose Allen/Jones, I could see us getting some vet minimum guys chasing rings and/or mid-level exception type guys?

So it isn't like we have a lack of depth and need alot of players. This isn't a Miami situation where we need to find 5-6 bodies to fill out the roster. We also still have adequate players on this team surrounding the big 3. If we want to make a big move, we could trade Waiters then with the Haywood contract and get very solid pieces for this team.

Who does Cleveland add going forward if you've got Irving, James, Love eating up a sizable portion of the cap.

I'm not sure what the Cavs would really "need" going forward with a Big Three like that, but there are always ways to fit guys into the salary cap with mid-level exceptions and veteran minimums, etc. And they still have draft picks.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

Love is a helluva player, but Wiggins potential trumps what he brings right now.

I doubt this very much. Love is a top-10 NBA player. Wiggins has a long way to go to reach those heights. And even if he can do so, I will always take an "actual" NBA superstar over a "potential" NBA superstar.

And its not being scared to be great, its called we have more leverage than Minnesota so why fold to their pressure

When demand exceeds supply, then the seller always has the leverage. There is one Kevin Love and many teams that want to acquire him. Hence, Minnesota has the leverage.

 

[OH10]

I don't blame Saunders at all for wanting to get a star out of this trade. I wouldn't blame him if he held onto Love beyond the deadline and got nothing for him rather than getting Wiggins. All the other players do is potentially keep your team mediocre. You're better off being bad than mediocre.

I still don't want to trade Wiggins.

 

[Bucks21]

I doubt this very much. Love is a top-10 NBA player. Wiggins has a long way to go to reach those heights. And even if he can do so, I will always take an "actual" NBA superstar over a "potential" NBA superstar.


When demand exceeds supply, then the seller always has the leverage. There is one Kevin Love and many teams that want to acquire him. Hence, Minnesota has the leverage.

I respect you LJB, but again Cavs have the leverage, because we have Wiggins and he the most potential out of anything that is going to be offered, and again I'm not afraid to let the young man develop. This whole its going to take five years for him to reach his potential argument is ridiculous, do we need Wiggins to reach his full potential in Lebron's prime? No, the Cavs do not, they only need him to come close to his defensive potential, it will probably take more than five years for Wiggins to reach his offensive potential, but his defensive potential could be realized very quickly, especially going against Lebron everyday in practice(not to mention his insane athletic ability).

 

[LordJeffBuck]

I respect you LJB, but again Cavs have the leverage, because we have Wiggins and he the most potential out of anything that is going to be offered....

Minnesota has the leverage because they can always say "no" regardless of what the Cavs offer. When Minnesota loses that ability to say "no", then the leverage swings to the Cavs. That happens either: (a) when the Cavs make Minnesota an offer they can't refuse, or (b) the trade deadline.

What other teams are offering is irrelevant because Minnesota doesn't have to trade Love right now. In other words, they can wait for the "offer they can't refuse". Or they can wait for the trade deadline, when their leverage goes away, which is a risky move.

 

[Bucks21]

Technically your right, but Flip is going to wait it out for Wiggins, and when we do not offer, its going to be interesting to see what happens. Only way he does not is if GState decides to offer Thompson and finds a way for TWolves to shed JJ and Kevin Martin.

 

[WyoBuck]

I think there are a lot of people that are putting waaaaay to much value on Wiggins potential, and not enough on Love's demonstrated ability and level of production.

 

[Bucks21]

I think there are a lot of people that are putting waaaaay to much value on Wiggins potential, and not enough on Love's demonstrated ability of production.

Yes, Love is a top ten player but it is not about just aquiring top ten talent, its about building a team and I think Wiggins fit as a defensive specialist(potentially) is more important than adding a guy that can score and pass.

 

[Bucks21]

If a trade is made for Love and we do give up Wiggins you must find an athletic defensive minded center that can make up for our other defensive inefficiency s.

 

[ScriptOhio]

I doubt this very much. Love is a top-10 NBA player. Wiggins has a long way to go to reach those heights. And even if he can do so, I will always take an "actual" NBA superstar over a "potential" NBA superstar.
When demand exceeds supply, then the seller always has the leverage. There is one Kevin Love and many teams that want to acquire him. Hence, Minnesota has the leverage.

I respect you LJB, but again Cavs have the leverage, because we have Wiggins and he the most potential out of anything that is going to be offered, and again I'm not afraid to let the young man develop. This whole its going to take five years for him to reach his potential argument is ridiculous, do we need Wiggins to reach his full potential in Lebron's prime? No, the Cavs do not, they only need him to come close to his defensive potential, it will probably take more than five years for Wiggins to reach his offensive potential, but his defensive potential could be realized very quickly, especially going against Lebron everyday in practice(not to mention his insane athletic ability).

Just sayin': I think Love has the leverage. He is a free agent after the 2014/2015 season and he won't exercise his player's option for 2015/2016 with Minnesota. If Minnesota keeps him they lose him next year and get nothing for it. He can almost dictate what team he is traded to by only agreeing a new long term contract or (at least) pick up his player's option for the 2015/2016 season with that team. Hence he is more valuable to that team and they will give more for him than the other teams that would (possibily) be getting a "one year rental player".

 

[WyoBuck]

Yes, Love is a top ten player but it is not about just aquiring top ten talent, its about building a team and I think Wiggins fit as a defensive specialist(potentially) is more important than adding a guy that can score and pass.

I still say you take the top ten player. What he brings is worth more as a known commodity than what you sacrifice. Look at it this way. Are the Cavs better or worse off without Love, on paper, if Wiggins doesn't pan out? I would also argue that the Cavs are worse of if Wiggins only becomes a defensive specialist, than if they have Love. The only way the trade doesn't make sense is either 1) Love stops producing at a high level or 2) Wiggins becomes a top ten SG in the next year. Now, which one is least likely. As far as leverage goes, if Cleveland had the leverage, and Wiggins is the better value, this trade would have been done weeks ago.

 

[OH10]

I think there are a lot of people that are putting waaaaay to much value on Wiggins potential, and not enough on Love's demonstrated ability and level of production.

I think not enough people on putting value into Wiggins' potential and too much into Love's so-called "demonstrated ability." Dude can rebound and shoot. Cool. I like it. Can he D up? If not, we got a problem.

 

[ethan]

If a trade is made for Love and we do give up Wiggins you must find an athletic defensive minded center that can make up for our other defensive inefficiency s.

Hopefully that center would be Gorgui Dieng...From Minnesota.
Cleveland Cavs (2012-2014 Seasons)

The Cavs don't need Wiggins to be an all-star in order to win a title.

Have you seen the Cavs the last couple of years?.. 33-49, 24-58, 21-45, 19-63
Do you honestly believe LeBron James suddenly makes that team a Finals contender this year or next?
Wiggins is 19!!...He probably wont be consistent or have enough awareness to be counted on in crunch time of close games that come down to the wire...in his first 2 years. You cant teach experience.
It would be hard enough winning in the playoffs with Irving and Love not having any playoff experience.
Consider now the fact that Wiggins is only 19 and has no NBA experience, would be even harder to win in the playoffs.

I think the Wiggins hype in this thread is more "hope" than anything else.
I can understand, I too want to keep Wiggins and get Love and I want Wiggins to be a lockdown defender...Is that too much to ask? lol

He [Love] can almost dictate what team he is traded to by only agreeing a new long term contract or (at least) pick up his player's option for the 2015/2016 season with that team.

Exactly, I heard Stephen A. Smith on M&M this morning say that he has heard Love is telling teams he wont sign long term with them, that he wants to be on the Cavs this year or the next. IF that's true, its a really smart move by Love. That would give the Cavs leverage because Love would be lowering his value to every other team. Which means the Wolves would be forced to take Cavs best offer.

Bennett, Waiters and a couple first round picks would probably still be better than anything else other teams would pay...for a one year rental of Kevin Love.

If Love wants to win a championship the best thing he could do is help the Cavs keep Wiggins.

 

[exhawg]

Most of the reports I've read today say that if the Cavs had ever offered Wiggins the Wolves would have jumped at the offer. From my perspective that means the Cavs haven't offered Wiggins. I don't think anyone is saying the Cavs shouldn't trade for Love. I think most people are saying there is no reason to rush into a move and give up more than they have to. IMO it isn't about if the Cavs are better with Wiggins or Love it's more about if they are better with Wiggins or Waiters. If the answer is Wiggins you take your time and make the Wolves come to you at the deadline when Love's value is at it's lowest especially if Love is telling other teams he wants to play for the Cavs. The only way the Cavs lose in this is if Love ends up with the Bulls long term without completely gutting the team. It doesn't matter if he stays in the west since he would have almost no shot of getting to the Finals.