Cleveland Browns (2012 season)

[Bucklion]

The only Kool Aid drinkers are the ones that [censored] and moan about every move the Browns make....It is the number one attribute of the Cleveland fan club...its to bitch about every [censored]ing thing the Browns do as an organization....its the positive fans that hold out hope that are the contrarians....the non Kool Aid drinkers...the persecuted


Weeden will win a Super Bowl

Yeah because the franchise has had so much success since 1999 to fall back on. I'd rather have a fan base that wants a winner than one that is satisfied with one playoff appearance in 13 years...those folks can go be Cubs fans.

 

[NFBuck]

My issue with the draft starts with taking a pushing thirty year old QB over two excellent OL. Yes, the OL was addressed with the next pick, but now you're locked on Weeden when next years draft is strong for QBs. I don't get the rush to grab a QB when he still lacks viable weapons in the passing game. The DT in round 3 was a head scratcher, no matter who was supposedly interested in taking him. Plus, he's a depth guy when you have many other holes to fill. Waiting until the 4th to address WR was stupid too. On top of that, Benjamin looks more like a return specialist...not a threat in the passing game. Aside from Richardson, it was a jumbled mess, IMO.

I have no issues with rounds 5-7, because, well, they're basically long shots every year, but they [censored]ed up rounds 1-4 pretty badly. Unless he turns out to be ginger Kurt Warner, the Weeden pick will never make sense to me. It just seems incredibly short sighted. If you're only a QB away from being a contender, I get it. That's not the case here, at all.

I foolishly came into this draft full of excitement. I was practically frothing at the mouth when DeCastro and Reiff fell into our laps. I could not believe they took a QB. Just couldn't fathom it. To make matters worse, DeCastro goes to the stillers where he'll kick our teeth in for a decade. I guess it's my own fault for thinking anything was different.

 

[LitlBuck]

I don't have an issue with the Richardson pick...he's a great player and the the safest pick in the draft, IMO.

It was rounds 2-7 that were just awful...and honestly, rounds 2-7 is where good GM's make hay. I don't agree that the Browns have been drafting that well under Heckert/Holmgren.

Sure they took Haden which was a no-brainer, IMO, and Ward is panning out. But I'm just not sold on a lot these guys...I really feel like they are constantly trying to out-think the room and are really just consistently passing up the best value and players in the draft. Phil Taylor is still up in the air to me, and Sheard was a good pick. But you look at the value and some of the guys sitting there to be had, we let those players go, and then watch as Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Baltimore, etc. pick them up.

I love the way KC, Tampa, and for a long time Pittsburgh handle their drafts. Safe value picks on guys who come from established programs where they can get great intel based on their scouting departments.

Some of the later round picks like a Cyrus Grey, Sean Spence, Mike Adams, Chris Rainey, Lavonte David.....those are exceptional values. Sean Spence was taken in the third round and will probably be a 10 year starter for Pittsburgh once he gets the system down...The same can be said for Lavonte David. John Hughes will be lucky to sniff the field...

I don't get it. Trading up for a broken down RB 3 years ago...some of the no-names from West Missouri Valley State, when solidified kids who play good football are right there for the taking. It's frustrating...

I agree with you regarding H&H regarding their first 2 drafts. I think they could have gotten much more quality than what they did.

However, I somewhat disagree with you when you say that you have to look at big-time programs to get NFL players. There are plenty of guys in the NFL that have come from smaller schools. Also, in this years draft, most of the players that the Browns took in rounds 2-7 did come from big name schools except maybe Johnson who came from Nevada but I have heard that the Browns really like him.

I guess I will just wait and see how this draft does pan out before I truly judge it. Oh, one more thing, I think if you look at Baltimore's draft this year not many of their selections came from big-time programs.

 

[NFBuck]

Yeah because the franchise has had so much success since 1999 to fall back on. I'd rather have a fan base that wants a winner than one that is satisfied with one playoff appearance in 13 years...those folks can go be Cubs fans.

Seriously. Why wouldn't we bitch about everything? This team has been a doormat for 13 years. Is it unreasonable to complain about consistent failure?

 

[colobuck79]

Weeden will win a superbowl after we trade him to New England.

 

[Bucklion]

I agree with you regarding H&H regarding their first 2 drafts. I think they could have gotten much more quality than what they did.

However, I somewhat disagree with you when you say that you have to look at big-time programs to get NFL players. There are plenty of guys in the NFL that have come from smaller schools. Also, in this years draft, most of the players that the Browns took in rounds 2-7 did come from big name schools except maybe Johnson who came from Nevada but I have heard that the Browns really like him.

I guess I will just wait and see how this draft does pan out before I truly judge it. Oh, one more thing, I think if you look at Baltimore's draft this year not many of their selections came from big-time programs.

The smaller schools are a double-edged sword in this day and age. Back in the day when scouting was nowhere near as intricate and global as it is now, the smaller, lower division, and predominantly black schools all had great players that did not appear on everyone's radar, or at least not to the same level. Thus you had (arguably) the greatest RB ever (Walter Payton, Jackson State) the greatest receiver ever (Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley State), the greatest sack machine ever (Deacon Jones, South Carolina State) and some of the greatest OL ever (Larry Little, Bethune-Cookman, Art Shell, Maryland Eastern Shore, etc.) come from those schools, some of whom went high in the draft, and others who were diamonds in the rough or under the radar of many teams. Nowadays though scouting is so complex and intricate that the chances of any player even being at an NAIA school that doesn't draw global interest if they are good enough is remote. So teams keep looking for those gems (I think the Bears drafter one or two rosters worth of players from Abilene Christian over a 2-3 year span) but they are fewer and farther between. That said, if you can play, you can play, and though level of competition does factor in, it hasn't stopped all of those HOFers from succeeding in the past.

 

[exhawg]

I'm not a huge fan of a couple of the picks, but I'm willing to give them a chance before I bash them. I wasn't a big fan of Haden, Ward, or Taylor when they were drafted and I was wrong about all of them. Sure there were some turds mixed into the past couple drafts as well, but I bet if we went back to right after the Browns drafted Taylor last year there was a lot of the same talk about taking him too high.
The biggest key to the Browns season this year is if Richardson, Schwartz and any other improvements on the OL can make defenses fear the running game and stack the box. The "crappy" WR's are going to look a lot better with man coverage and a QB that can throw the ball more than 20 yards down the field. Best case Weeden is good enough for the Browns to draft something other than QB with the first round pick next year. Worst case they take the best QB in the draft and let Weeden take a beating for a year or two while the kid learns and they use more draft picks to build the team. If this draft falls on its face the Browns will clean house and be starting from scratch again anyway. I think H&H think that they needed to show a big improvement this year so they took the gamble that Weeden will be the best QB in this draft for the next 2-3 years. Unfortunately most of us were probably content to suck next year and build for 2013 with a new QB in the next draft.

 

[billmac91]

The smaller schools are a double-edged sword in this day and age. Back in the day when scouting was nowhere near as intricate and global as it is now, the smaller, lower division, and predominantly black schools all had great players that did not appear on everyone's radar, or at least not to the same level. Thus you had (arguably) the greatest RB ever (Walter Payton, Jackson State) the greatest receiver ever (Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley State), the greatest sack machine ever (Deacon Jones, South Carolina State) and some of the greatest OL ever (Larry Little, Bethune-Cookman, Art Shell, Maryland Eastern Shore, etc.) come from those schools, some of whom went high in the draft, and others who were diamonds in the rough or under the radar of many teams. Nowadays though scouting is so complex and intricate that the chances of any player even being at an NAIA school that doesn't draw global interest if they are good enough is remote. So teams keep looking for those gems (I think the Bears drafter one or two rosters worth of players from Abilene Christian over a 2-3 year span) but they are fewer and farther between. That said, if you can play, you can play, and though level of competition does factor in, it hasn't stopped all of those HOFers from succeeding in the past.

Take a look at the value of a guy like Sean Spence/Mike Adams though. Sean Spence was regarded as the best Linebacker in his class out of high school, goes to University of Miami, and gets caught up on terrible teams, played out of position, and was still pretty productive.

Pittsburgh steals him in the third. Not to mention the stole Dicastro in the first. Oh, and they stole Mike Adams.

It isn't complicated. It really isn't...there is a reason the Steelers are a success year after year after year...and the Browns are the Browns.

 

[tsteele316]

Take a look at the value of a guy like Sean Spence/Mike Adams though. Sean Spence was regarded as the best Linebacker in his class out of high school, goes to University of Miami, and gets caught up on terrible teams, played out of position, and was still pretty productive.

Pittsburgh steals him in the third. Not to mention the stole Dicastro in the first. Oh, and they stole Mike Adams.

It isn't complicated. It really isn't...there is a reason the Steelers are a success year after year after year...and the Browns are the Browns.

like when they stole limas sweed in the late 2nd, and bruce davis in the 3rd, thad gibson in the 4th, and so on. what pitt has done is hit on their 1st and 2nd rounders, and sporadically gotten a few late round guys to pan out. hardly anything revolutionary. their hit/miss rate over the last few years isn't substantially different than clevelands. the difference is they've been consistently doing it for a decade, whereas cleveland has really only been consistently getting draft pick production the last two years.

the reason pittsburgh keeps rolling on is quite simple, they've done two things cleveland has failed to do since 1999. they've fielded a tough defense, and they've obtained a legit qb. nothing more.

 

[Bucklion]

Take a look at the value of a guy like Sean Spence/Mike Adams though. Sean Spence was regarded as the best Linebacker in his class out of high school, goes to University of Miami, and gets caught up on terrible teams, played out of position, and was still pretty productive.

Pittsburgh steals him in the third. Not to mention the stole Dicastro in the first. Oh, and they stole Mike Adams.

It isn't complicated. It really isn't...there is a reason the Steelers are a success year after year after year...and the Browns are the Browns.

No I agree about the Steelers, especially about DiCastro...though if I was a fan or alum of any other college team, I wouldn't be crazy about the Adams pick I don't think. But they do have the luxury of upgrading at "secondary" positions like guard and safety...we can and IMO should have done that, but when we do it, it is at the expense of other positions of critical need, of which there are almost all of them. Some teams like NE and Pitt seem to get the most out of late first round-third round picks, while we get David Veikune and a handful of receivers who can't get open or catch. I am somewhat more moderately optimistic with Ward, Sheard, Taylor, and Mack having been recent successes, but the ratio is still skewed and we can't afford more misses to be competitive.

 

[Bucklion]

like when they stole limas sweed in the late 2nd, and bruce davis in the 3rd, thad gibson in the 4th, and so on. what pitt has done is hit on their 1st and 2nd rounders, and sporadically gotten a few late round guys to pan out. hardly anything revolutionary. their hit/miss rate over the last few years isn't substantially different than clevelands. the difference is they've been consistently doing it for a decade, whereas cleveland has really only been consistently getting draft pick production the last two years.

the reason pittsburgh keeps rolling on is quite simple, they've done two things cleveland has failed to do since 1999. they've fielded a tough defense, and they've obtained a legit qb. nothing more.

So other than playing better, having better coaches, and getting better personnel, it's pretty simple then?

 

[tsteele316]

I'm not a huge fan of a couple of the picks, but I'm willing to give them a chance before I bash them. I wasn't a big fan of Haden, Ward, or Taylor when they were drafted and I was wrong about all of them. Sure there were some turds mixed into the past couple drafts as well, but I bet if we went back to right after the Browns drafted Taylor last year there was a lot of the same talk about taking him too high.
The biggest key to the Browns season this year is if Richardson, Schwartz and any other improvements on the OL can make defenses fear the running game and stack the box. The "crappy" WR's are going to look a lot better with man coverage and a QB that can throw the ball more than 20 yards down the field. Best case Weeden is good enough for the Browns to draft something other than QB with the first round pick next year. Worst case they take the best QB in the draft and let Weeden take a beating for a year or two while the kid learns and they use more draft picks to build the team. If this draft falls on its face the Browns will clean house and be starting from scratch again anyway. I think H&H think that they needed to show a big improvement this year so they took the gamble that Weeden will be the best QB in this draft for the next 2-3 years. Unfortunately most of us were probably content to suck next year and build for 2013 with a new QB in the next draft.

that's simply dangerous logic. if you were told a year ago that cleveland would be picking 4th, be in desperate need of a qb, and would offer up 3 1st round picks, would you think they would have gotten their man? of course.

there are some really shitty nfl teams right now. even with the supposed tough schedule, it will be pretty tough for cleveland to end up picking top 5 again. from there, you still are going to need at least two other college qbs to show up next year to be worthy of picking. then, you need to worry about the obscene trade up price that will inevitably result. simply assuming a franchise qb is going to land in cleveland's lap in the 2013 draft is foolhardy.

 

[tsteele316]

So other than playing better, having better coaches, and getting better personnel, it's pretty simple then?

yes, that's clearly what was said. please try harder.

 

[Bucklion]

yes, that's clearly what was said. please try harder.

Well it was a joke, hence the "LOL", but if you want to be a dick about it...

you said "field a tough defense and obtain a QB" is the only difference between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, that and draft well over 10 years instead of 2...sounds like personnel (too many to name), coaching (LeBeau), and getting the most out of the talent you draft, including having marginal DEs play really well in a system that features LBs, which is both. Of course we could also factor in production from WRs like Ward, El, Wallace, etc. having one of the best TEs in the game, having more consistency at RB in Mendenhall, and commiting high picks to their OL, but yeah, if we had gotten RGIII we could start buying SB tickets. Yep, sounds like the state of the Browns alright.

 

[bassbuckeye07]

Yeah because the franchise has had so much success since 1999 to fall back on. I'd rather have a fan base that wants a winner than one that is satisfied with one playoff appearance in 13 years...those folks can go be Cubs fans.

Oh yeah because Cleveland fans didnt bitch when they were the old Cleveland Browns.....Bill ran out of town etc etc

I think demanding a winner is what a fan base should do but instead of stepping back and taking a look to see what happens its

Belicheck sucks...Mangino sucks....Colt Sucks...with in days of them showing up....and in the case of this draft, while flawed....before anyone even gets into town