Christianity and Football(Split from 2009 Tidbits)

[Buckeye86]

It seems to me that this quote

The suggestion that Malcolm Jenkins and James Laurinitis are not excellent leaders is ridiculous

contradicts this one

is a distraction from the likelihood that the divisions in the locker-room were completely unrelated to religion.

you admit that there were divisions in the locker room, but questioning the leadership of the team leaders is ridiculous?

it seems to me that if their leadership was beyond question, there wouldn't have been divisions in the locker room

We've got an incredibly talented '08 class led by a blue-chip recruit taking PT and starting jobs from established veterans, and you think the problem is about wrist-bands? Get a clue.

You act like Folanator's problem lies entirely in what the leaders on the team chose to wear, which doesn't address the point he is making at all. I understand that it is much easier to argue things when you boil them down to ultra simplistic terms, but if you don't want to respond to the arguments the other person is actually making then why even respond?

 

[Taosman]

This "bias" goes both ways, Baybuck. :tongue2:

 

[BayBuck]

you admit that there were divisions in the locker room, but questioning the leadership of the team leaders is ridiculous?

it seems to me that if their leadership was beyond question, there wouldn't have been divisions in the locker room

Having a couple of strong leaders among 100 players on the team does not guarantee there will be perfect cohesion. Rather than call out the team's obvious leaders for their open faith, I'd look at the other veterans who might have resented the youth movement and wonder if they were really living up to the leadership expectations that go along with their experience.

 

[JCOSU86]

It seems to me that this quote

contradicts this one


you admit that there were divisions in the locker room, but questioning the leadership of the team leaders is ridiculous?

it seems to me that if their leadership was beyond question, there wouldn't have been divisions in the locker room



You act like Folanator's problem lies entirely in what the leaders on the team chose to wear, which doesn't address the point he is making at all. I understand that it is much easier to argue things when you boil them down to ultra simplistic terms, but if you don't want to respond to the arguments the other person is actually making then why even respond?

So, it's impossible to have great leaders and malcontents that won't follow them on the same team?

 

[Folanator]

I just think you are letting your bias against religion get in the way of a constructive discussion about team chemistry issues. The suggestion that Malcolm Jenkins and James Laurinitis are not excellent leaders is ridiculous, and your focus on their Christian beliefs is a distraction from the likelihood that the divisions in the locker-room were completely unrelated to religion. We've got an incredibly talented '08 class led by a blue-chip recruit taking PT and starting jobs from established veterans, and you think the problem is about wrist-bands? Get a clue.

'scuse me? I am getting in the way of a constructive discussion? Who started this thread? Ummmmm....me, and yes I questioned how much JL and MF faith got in the way of team chemistry. So, if you want to discuss something else I suggest you start another thread.

It's a perfectly valid point to raise. The counter issue that keeps poping up, is just because I am questioning if the teams leaderships faith hindered the team chemistry I am so how another clueless pegan. It is this EXACT issue that could divide a locker room in the same way that it is divided posters in this thread. So I appreciate you showing with absolute clarity exactly why this COULD be a problem.

Now look, I agree that this might not have been the problem. But you do not know for sure it isn't. Therefore it is a topic for discussion even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

 

[Buckeye86]

So, it's impossible to have great leaders and malcontents that won't follow them on the same team?

not impossible, just unlikely, but thank you for once again boiling things down to ultra simplistic terms

when the 'malcontents' are numerous enough to cause divisions in the locker room which affect play on the field, which is the contention of this thread, then I think it is perfectly valid to question the quality and style of the leadership on the team

 

[BayBuck]

'scuse me? I am getting in the way of a constructive discussion? Who started this thread? Ummmmm....me, and yes I questioned how much JL and MF faith got in the way of team chemistry. So, if you want to discuss something else I suggest you start another thread.

It's a perfectly valid point to raise. The counter issue that keeps poping up, is just because I am questioning if the teams leaderships faith hindered the team chemistry I am so how another clueless pegan. It is this EXACT issue that could divide a locker room in the same way that it is divided posters in this thread. So I appreciate you showing with absolute clarity exactly why this COULD be a problem.

Now look, I agree that this might not have been the problem. But you do not know for sure it isn't. Therefore it is a topic for discussion even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

It does not make me remotely uncomfortable, I just think it is an incredibly stupid idea and that you have no idea what goes on in a locker room but see another opportunity to rail on Christians with your baseless conjecture.

And you didn't start this thread, you went off on a tangent during another discussion of team dynamics which was then split over here; there is the potential for an interesting discussion about real chemistry issues that you are turning into a farce.

 

[Folanator]

It does not make me remotely uncomfortable, I just think it is an incredibly stupid idea and that you have no idea what goes on in a locker room but see another opportunity to rail on Christians with your baseless conjecture.

Oh I am sorry, I must have been fooled by the thread title "Christianity and Football".

If you are not uncomfortable, you sure are acting like it. I do not rail on Christians, that is silly and/or paranoid. That whole "you don't agree with me so you must be full of hate" argument is simplistic and rediculous.

 

[BayBuck]

Oh I am sorry, I must have missed the thread title "Christianity and Football"(split from...).

Disagreement =/= discomfort.

 

[muffler dragon]

Just had to interject, because it's fun.

They all share certain traits:

All require blind faith in things that make no sense, whatsoever.

Completely depends on the perspective, obviously; however, this broad swath is a bit much. Theoretical explorations in numerous disciplines can appear nonsensical to others and this is not strictly a religious connotation either. However, the appearance of nonsense to one person does not make it legit or not.

All have survived for thousands of years because of Man's fear of his own mortality.

This is quite untrue. There are a number of faiths that deal strictly or predominantly in the temporal.

All have been used to justify killing others at one time or another. :ohwell:

In fairness, many ideologies (religious and otherwise) have done this.

Re: the topic at hand.

I think it would be cool to see eye "paint" with "Sura ____" or "Bhagavad Gita ____", or "Humanist Manifesto ____" etc. on it. I believe the reactions would be quite entertaining.

 

[Brutus1]

So, can we just answer yes or no to: Did the faith of 2008 leadership cause chemistry issues on the team? Yes or no.

 

[jwinslow]

There was absolutely a rift between the veterans and youngsters, as grad and others have reported. That would have existed even if the allegedly soft Christians were never recruited to Ohio State.

So, can we just answer yes or no to: Did the faith of 2008 leadership cause chemistry issues on the team? Yes or no.

That's not half of the claim here.

Fol claimed that the Christian leaders were too busy being christian (as their top priority) to be pissed off aggressive tacklers, and that their faith kept others from being effective football players as well.

That's quite an extreme declaration, especially when so many past leaders and legends on Tressel teams have also put a premium on their faith (and publically).

 

[Brutus1]

There was absolutely a rift between the veterans and youngsters, as grad and others have reported. That would have existed even if the allegedly soft Christians were never recruited to Ohio State.That's not half of the claim here.

Fol claimed that the Christian leaders were too busy being christian (as their top priority) to be pissed off aggressive tacklers, and that their faith kept others from being effective football players as well.

That's quite an extreme declaration, especially when so many past leaders and legends on Tressel teams have also put a premium on their faith (and publically).

That is quite a declaration, but perhaps Fol had access to the locker room on a daily basis or has an inside with some players. Is that the case?

 

[Folanator]

That is quite a declaration, but perhaps Fol had access to the locker room on a daily basis or has an inside with some players. Is that the case?

Nope. Pure 100% conjecture.

JWins took what I was stating a little farther than what I stated to embelish his point. Mark of an excellent debater. :)

I did not mean to insinuate that the team leaders were soft in their own personal game, CLEARLY they are great players that hit hard and were tough as hell. I was questioning if their leadership style created a divide in the team.

 

[BUCKYLE]

I think the biblical passages on the eye black was a great way to spread the message. I wanted to know what it was, and I'm not a christian.