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2009 TSUN arguments, shenanigans (not football)

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Jaxbuck;1497512; said:
The kool aid brigade shows up and leaves this gem:



Last 2 years under Carr scUM went 11-2 then 9-4 but was in a slow decline. RR then comes in and changes everything by going 3-9. They have somehow convinced themselves this is a good thing.

Its all good though because this year rodent nation is "fired up" so thats going to get them to 6-7 wins and next year-2010- its B10 championship or bust.

:slappy:

Have I ever mentioned that given the disparity of failures in AA and South Bend this decade vs the success in Columbus, this might be the single greatest period of time to be a Buckeye in history?
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There was no "slow decline"...take away the one magical season in '97, and he was pretty mediocre across the board.
 
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Jaxbuck;1496820; said:
World of difference in being confident Tater Tot is the best QB option and being confident the team will do well.

He may very well be the tallest midget, that doesn't mean he's going to set the world on fire as a true freshman with limited talent around him.
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Tate will have more than enough talent around him IMO.

I doubt he'll set the world on fire, but I do think that he will definitely fare better than Nick Sheridan or Steve Threet. He's a more natural fit for the style of offense than either Sheridan or Threet, and he was a much more highly sought after high school recruit than either Sheridan or Threet.

Threet was just not a fit for the offense and he had major accuracy issues in a very simple offense that didn't require him to make difficult throws (51% completion in that offense is a joke), and Sheridan was a walk-on under Carr for 3 years before Rich put him on scholarship. Sheridan had no business seeing the field, and my guess is that with Tate Forcier and Denard Robinson in the '09 class and with Devin Gardner and Cornelious Jones in the '10 class that Sheridan will likely never see the field again.
 
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mh20;1497605; said:
Tate will have more than enough talent around him IMO.

I doubt he'll set the world on fire, but I do think that he will definitely fare better than Nick Sheridan or Steve Threet. He's a more natural fit for the style of offense than either Sheridan or Threet, and he was a much more highly sought after high school recruit than either Sheridan or Threet.

Threet was just not a fit for the offense and he had major accuracy issues in a very simple offense that didn't require him to make difficult throws (51% completion in that offense is a joke), and Sheridan was a walk-on under Carr for 3 years before Rich put him on scholarship. Sheridan had no business seeing the field, and my guess is that with Tate Forcier and Denard Robinson in the '09 class and with Devin Gardner and Cornelious Jones in the '10 class that Sheridan will likely never see the field again.
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So it keeps coming back to the same thing. If tater Tot stays healthy and is productive to a reasonable expectation the offense will be somewhat better but the defense can just as reasonably be expected to be somewhat worse. Where does the big leap forward come from?

I don't see the potential for a big win/loss improvement from last year even if the best case scenario for tsun comes true. If anything other than the best case QB scenario happens I don't think a similar win/loss record to 2008 is going to be that big of a stretch.

The entire season rides on the narrow shoulders of a small true freshman QB who will be running an offense in which QB's take a pounding. I see tsun fans say this but I don't get the sense that any of them really grasp how bad the odds are stacked against them. I get the sense they all think Tater Tot is going to not only stay healthy but be a phenom.

And BTW, the talk this summer of how bad Threet and Sheridan are/were isn't the same song you guys were signing last summer. Then it was how RR's scheme was going to carry the day and how anything less than a 6-7 win season, AT WORST, was just flat out unpossible.
 
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buckeyesin07;1497619; said:
Really? I thought Carr left the cupboard bare, which caused RR to go 3-9 just last season.
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At certain positions, yes I believe that Carr left the cupboard bare with his recruiting. Carr literally put all of his eggs in the Ryan Mallett basket at the QB position.

Tate should have a good enough mix of veteran and young talent around him at the skill positions to help shoulder the load.

The biggest concern that I have for the offense other than QB, is the OL. Last year the offensive line was beyond atrocious, and if it is anything in 2009 like it was in 2008, then Michigan probably doesn't win more than 3 games yet again.

Like any football team, you live and die in the trenches.
 
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Poe McKnoe;1497613; said:
Threet was serviceable (read: only real option) but RichRod actually picked Sheridan to start over Threet.
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^^This.^^

And it is such a clear point I remain shocked that more isn't made of that decision.

When UM fans defend RR's personnel decisions..the response should be: 'Why do you expect stellar personnel decisions and player evaluation skills from someone who picked Sheridan over Threet?'
 
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mh20;1497638; said:
At certain positions, yes I believe that Carr left the cupboard bare with his recruiting. Carr literally put all of his eggs in the Ryan Mallett basket at the QB position.
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all the more reason there should have been a much larger effort to keep him in the program IMO. Well done by RR...alienate the one good QB, ignore the best remaining option and start the walk on.

mh20;1497638; said:
Tate should have a good enough mix of veteran and young talent around him at the skill positions to help shoulder the load.
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Have we mentioned how small Tate's shoulders are lately?

No?

Tate has small shoulders.

:biggrin:
 
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Jaxbuck;1496604; said:
I think they go 2-2 in the OOC and will struggle to win 4 B10 games. 6-7 wins TOPS imo.
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7 wins is +4 from last season and fits the model of large turn around. I think RR is also responsible (in part) for the turn around at Tulane. The model for Tulane, WV were virtually similar. Could scUM follow?:
Tulane -
96: 2-9 (no RR)
97: 7-4 (RR qb coach)
98: 12-0 (RR qb coach)
Tommy B leaves for Clemson and takes RR with him

WV:
00: 7-5 (pre RR)
01: 3-8 (RR's first year)
02: 9-4
peaks in a weak league until Pat White -
05: 11-1
06: 11-2
07: 10-2*

scUM
07: 9-4 (pre RR)
08: 3-9
09: ???


Also RR first year at Salem 2-8. First year at Glenville St 1-7-1
So what have we learned from history?

Twice RR has taken teams with a winning record and reduced them to 3 win teams and two times before he has debuted less than stellar teams. Maybe he doesn't adapt well to the personnel at hand. Maybe his gimmicky system takes time to learn.

Once his system takes hold he can have a decent winning percentage team. Glenville St was good but not a multiple national champion team like Tressel and YSU.

If he has the right qb - (Pat White / Shaun King) he will can do very well.

Tulane's competition wasn't be enough to rough up King. Pat White had a hard time staying healthy for WV in the Big East. Is it possible for that kind of QB to stay healthy in the Big Ten?

RR has played the odds with marginal recruits. Marginal recruits (tweeners/ character issues) can build mid majors. Michigan and OSU shouldn't have to settle for marginal recruits. They should be able to recruit people who are big, fast and good kids.

All in all, I love RR at scUM.
 
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HINYG8;1497646; said:
^^This.^^

And it is such a clear point I remain shocked that more isn't made of that decision.

When UM fans defend RR's personnel decisions..the response should be: 'Why do you expect stellar personnel decisions and player evaluation skills from someone who picked Sheridan over Threet?'
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First of all, Steve Threet was hardly serviceable. Unless you define serviceable as completing 51% of your passes and throwing only 2 more TD's than INT's. Someone like Adam Weber from Minnesota or Juice Williams from Illinois is a serviceable QB. Steven Threet was hardly serviceable. He was just the best option of three very bad options.

Rich Rodriguez did not pick Sheridan over Threet either. They were both given a similar number of snaps, in fact Threet was given more snaps than Sheridan, and he attempted 63 more passes than Sheridan and 34 more runs.

Rich didn't know what he had come game-day in either player, and he tested them both out on the field. Threet wound up winning the job, but was pulled on a few occasions because of injury and he had to sit out the Minnesota game because of injury, and Sheridan started that game and had the offense operating at a more efficient pace in that game than any other in the entire season.
 
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