Yahoo, Tattoos, and tOSU (1-year bowl ban, 82 scholly limit for 3 years)

[BrutusBobcat]

Here's one of the things that I think is driving the angst both in our fan base and in the larger college football media and fan universe. It's the thought that if Coach Tressel is or could be "cheating", then who isn't?

Not posting that as an excuse or anything of the sort, just that there has to be some thinking out there making people wonder, especially on the heels of the rumor Cowherd picked up about an "unexpected" program, which still hasn't hit, then we have stories about Flenory and Oregon and now Michigan, SI's story about crime and college football, the ongoing Cammy Cam saga -- it makes me think that a lot of the vitriol is being driven by the fear that the whole thing might be dirty to the core.

Just as baseball fans absolutely hate the busted and admitted 'roiders, because they hope that it really just was ONLY Canseco, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro and McGwire and not the whole league, and that maybe if we all burn those guys at the stake really hard that it won't also turn out to be guys we think are clean, I think there's some of that. The hope that somehow torching the one guy who got caught makes the rest of the problem go away.

Of the 118(?) head coaches in FBS, do you wonder how many would have kicked that info up to compliance? I am sure that fans at every other school in the country somewhere in their minds wonder if their coach would, or would he sit on the emails? If Tressel can't do the right thing, what makes anyone think that their coach is any better?

I think that's the real fear, that no one is.

 

[Jaxbuck]

I've also never heard of JT claim he was a better person than anyone else.

Except for the books telling others how to live a more virtuous life and such?

The fact is he may not be cut from a higher moral cloth than you or I, but JT sure as hell is when compared to other CFB coaches.

You mean he sure as hell is morally superior to the CFB coaches that have never been caught breaking NCAA rules or that he's better than the ones, like him, that have?

To call him a "myth" while choosing to dismiss all the evidence that points toward it being true to an extent (helping out MoC when he had no obligation to, countless present/past players' testimonies, etc) is ignorant and simply vindictive IMO.

To use MoC as an example of the virtue of Tressel while dismissing the possibility of it foreshadowing this incident (ignoring warnings to keep a star eligible) is being incredibly naive imo.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

Here's one of the things that I think is driving the angst both in our fan base and in the larger college football media and fan universe. It's the thought that if Coach Tressel is or could be "cheating", then who isn't?

I don't think that's driving the angst anywhere, really. The angst within this fanbase seems to be in finding solidarity among viewpoints, something that can't be done with a situation so polarizing. The angst "in the larger college football media" is non-existent, everybody now has free reign to take all the shots at Ohio State that they've been wanting to take for years. It's more reactionary and emotional than it is anything else.

Not posting that as an excuse or anything of the sort, just that there has to be some thinking out there making people wonder, especially on the heels of the rumor Cowherd picked up about an "unexpected" program, which still hasn't hit, then we have stories about Flenory and Oregon and now Michigan, SI's story about crime and college football, the ongoing Cammy Cam saga -- it makes me think that a lot of the vitriol is being driven by the fear that the whole thing might be dirty to the core.

This seems naive to me, even with the cleaner programs withstanding, I don't think anyone could look at NCAA athletics (football AND basketball) and dream that there wasn't corruption and arbitrary rule-breaking throughout. It's obviously been more flagrant and impactful in certain programs more than it has been in others, but to turn a blind eye and pretend that there were any pristine players, coaches or programs is absurd.

Just as baseball fans absolutely hate the busted and admitted 'roiders, because they hope that it really just was ONLY Canseco, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro and McGwire and not the whole league, and that maybe if we all burn those guys at the stake really hard that it won't also turn out to be guys we think are clean, I think there's some of that. The hope that somehow torching the one guy who got caught makes the rest of the problem go away.

I could understand that motive, but I also understand that the reality would still be that those that are persecuted are only those that have been outed. I'm willing to bet that OVER 75% of MLB players have used performance enhancing drugs for an extended period of time in the past two decades, just as I'm willing to bet that over 75% of NCAA D-1 programs have had their encounters with extended debauchery and foulness over the same time-span.

Of the 118(?) head coaches in FBS, do you wonder how many would have kicked that info up to compliance? I am sure that fans at every other school in the country somewhere in their minds wonder if their coach would, or would he sit on the emails? If Tressel can't do the right thing, what makes anyone think that their coach is any better?

I think that's the real fear, that no one is.

I don't think the notion that "If Tressel can't do it then who can" is anywhere near ballpark reality. What I CAN stand behind is "If Tressel can't follow protocol, could I?" then subsequently "If I can/can't do it, what needs to change so that one of the leaders of these multi-million dollar institutions can follow protocol better without any type of hesitance or fear?"

That's where the REAL discussion is, anything outside of that is the punchline of the joke that is media.

 

[Gatorubet]

I don't think the notion that "If Tressel can't do it then who can" is anywhere near ballpark reality. What I CAN stand behind is "If Tressel can't follow protocol, could I?" then subsequently "If I can/can't do it, what needs to change so that one of the leaders of these multi-million dollar institutions can follow protocol better without any type of hesitance or fear?"

That's where the REAL discussion is, anything outside of that is the punchline of the joke that is media.

Than it seems to line up - almost solely - around one's opinion of Coach Tressel as a person. If the opinion is that his personal ethical compass is high, then everything else is either less important, or put in an "unexplained - anything not known give Tress the benefit of the doubt" box.

If, OTOH, one's view of the facts leads one to question Tress' character, then one can freely infer less palatable motives to his actions, taking the view that the "unexplained" is not a "benefit of the doubt" in his favor, but a negative in that he failed to explain the reasons for what he did.

At this point the discussion will likely not convince anyone who is already firmly set in their opinion, as new facts - or news articles - or typing new (or annoying redundant) posts will have little effect on the one factor that determines an outcome - what you think of Coach Tressels personal ethical qualities. *

Or as a judge once told me, "iron clad convictions are the railroad tracks that lead to inescapable conclusions".


* (And I do not mean "saint" versus "scumbag", but more of a "man who would not hide violations simply to aid his program - he was protecting kids" versus "overall good guy who simply did what was necessary to keep good players and win games" )

 

[SloopyHangOn]

Than it seems to line up - almost solely - around one's opinion of Coach Tressel as a person. If the opinion is that his personal ethical compass is high, then everything else is either less important, or put in an "unexplained - anything not known give Tress the benefit of the doubt" box.

If, OTOH, one's view of the facts leads one to question Tress' character, then one can freely infer less palatable motives to his actions, taking the view that the "unexplained" is not a "benefit of the doubt" in his favor, but a negative in that he failed to explain the reasons for what he did.

If this was your opinion, why did you use my quote to create a "then" statement.

My post was attempting to express the exact opposite sentiment of this.

EDIT: AKA, OBJECTION! Leading.

EDIT2: Let me clarify. I personally don't think that anyone's opinion on Tressel, the University or any of those involved with it has anything to do with the real issue here, that rules were broken and that corrections must be made. Decisions are being made by people who are being paid big bucks to make them. When a decision is made that turns out to be the incorrect one, that leads me to question whether or not the person who made the decision is solely at fault, or if there are extenuating circumstances that played into it that then become the focus of correction. At this point, none of us really have ALL the evidence for determining whether Tressel is solely at fault, or if there were other things that played into his decisions. HOWEVER, determining who's at fault only goes as far as isolating WHO is to receive correction, not WHAT or HOW MUCH.

At this point, anything other than that seems to be exactly as you put it, an effort in futility.

 

[Steve19]

Ironclad convictions may lead to inescapable conclusions. I have taught at The Ohio State University. I am very much aware of the standards set for these young men and the values that animate the Ohio States sports programs.

Concerning Tressel, I have seen the fruit of this tree firsthand. The young men turned from anger to solid social roles. The transformation of Troy Smith being probably one of the best examples.

I don't think that we have heard the whole story. If we have heard the whole story, then I think that this instance does not reveal that Tressel is an evil man who breaks rules all the time behind an honorable facade.

There are several posters who I feel have made their point and are on the edge of bashing Coach Tressel.

 

[Gatorubet]

EDIT: AKA, OBJECTION! Leading.

I was not attemtping to ascribe a position to you, just that your post got me thinking about the where a whole lot of the distictions came from in the two - camps - as it were. And that was my observation, given that the passage of time has not really moved anyone much in the last day or so.

I did not mean to put words in you mouth Sloop.

 

[Gatorubet]

Ironclad convictions may lead to inescapable conclusions. I have taught at The Ohio State University. I am very much aware of the standards set for these young men and the values that animate the Ohio States sports programs.

Concerning Tressel, I have seen the fruit of this tree firsthand. The young men turned from anger to solid social roles. The transformation of Troy Smith being probably one of the best examples.

I don't think that we have heard the whole story. If we have heard the whole story, then I think that this instance does not reveal that Tressel is an evil man who breaks rules all the time behind an honorable facade.

There are several posters who I feel have made their point and are on the edge of bashing Coach Tressel.

Ironic support for my theory Steve?

 

[LordJeffBuck]

Personally, I believe there's a significant difference between coaches like Bruce Pearl or Kelvin Sampson who repeatedly commit NCAA violations and, then break NCAA rule 10.1 trying to cover their own backside; and JT breaking rule 10.1 by not reporting an e-mail he received that probably indicated NCAA eligibility issues for a couple of his best players.

The problem with this line of thinking is that JT is generally perceived by the media and CFB fans as a "teflon" guy who has repeatedly committed NCAA violations both at tOSU (MoC, Troy, TatGate) and at YSU (Ray Isaac), and that the TatGate cover-up is the first thing that actually stuck to him personally.

Yes, actions can be judged and what he did was wrong by the letter of NCAA rules. However, I can't say that what he did was or was not wrong because intent is not known.

Tressel looks bad now because he failed to adequately document his "intent" back in April of 2010 when he received the first email from Cicero, and that is largely why his "intent is not known". However, what he did do back then makes his "intent" look more "wrong" than "right". And his official explanation as expressed in the March 8th press conference is neither supported by his statements/actions of April-June 2010, nor is it in accordance with common sense.

 

[CentralMOBuck]

Did anyone watch the Chris Cicero interview that was just on SportsCenter? ESPN did a great job at editing the interview........

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6212176

 

[ginn421]

Except for the books telling others how to live a more virtuous life and such?

Telling vs offering are two very different things...did he force you to read the book and enact everything that was said in it? I have read the book and the strategies he suggests are merely a means to motivate as a way to reach one's goals. Never does it explicitly state what those goals should be person to person.

To use MoC as an example of the virtue of Tressel while dismissing the possibility of it foreshadowing this incident (ignoring warnings to keep a star eligible) is being incredibly naive imo.

I'll give you that MoC is not the best example while he was at OSU, but what did JT have to gain by helping him afterward? You're ignoring a whole other part of the story. Mo could not suit up for OSU or help them in any way on the field...what was his motivation there? Could it be that JT actually cared about another person that was not directly tied to his success as coach? Or maybe he was using Mo to enhance his "mythical" character that he no doubt spends every waking hour working on so message board posters think highly of him?

You mean he sure as hell is morally superior to the CFB coaches that have never been caught breaking NCAA rules or that he's better than the ones, like him, that have?

And I think this is naive. Never being caught breaking NCAA rules does not mean it never happens. Believe it or not, JT and OSU have a huge target on their backs. It is simply a bigger story when OSU or Michigan or USC is investigated vs a Troy or SDSU or Rice (not saying they have broken rules, just using them as a smaller school example). Saying that the majority of coaches would turn in their star QB and WR based on an email from a 50-something lawyer who cannot write a sentence without a typo is being very optimistic.

This has been beat into the ground already, but I truly believe JT was in a no-win situation:

-Report the claim: possibly cause a man to become disbarred, disrupt a federal investigation, and potentially endanger a season by suspending players who may or may not have been guilty (ended up that they were).

-Keep it to himself: we know what the consequences are for this scenario.

 

[matcar]

Telling vs offering are two very different things...did he force you to read the book and enact everything that was said in it? I have read the book and the strategies he suggests are merely a means to motivate as a way to reach one's goals. Never does it explicitly state what those goals should be person to person.



I'll give you that MoC is not the best example while he was at OSU, but what did JT have to gain by helping him afterward? You're ignoring a whole other part of the story. Mo could not suit up for OSU or help them in any way on the field...what was his motivation there? Could it be that JT actually cared about another person that was not directly tied to his success as coach? Or maybe he was using Mo to enhance his "mythical" character that he no doubt spends every waking hour working on so message board posters think highly of him?



And I think this is naive. Never being caught breaking NCAA rules does not mean it never happens. Believe it or not, JT and OSU have a huge target on their backs. It is simply a bigger story when OSU or Michigan or USC is investigated vs a Troy or SDSU or Rice (not saying they have broken rules, just using them as a smaller school example). Saying that the majority of coaches would turn in their star QB and WR based on an email from a 50-something lawyer who cannot write a sentence without a typo is being very optimistic.

This has been beat into the ground already, but I truly believe JT was in a no-win situation:

-Report the claim: possibly cause a man to become disbarred, disrupt a federal investigation, and potentially endanger a season by suspending players who may or may not have been guilty (ended up that they were).

-Keep it to himself: we know what the consequences are for this scenario.

You're right he was between a rock and a hard place, but we are often measured by the choices we make it difficult times. His choice here was apparentlyquite poor. I can get with accepting the punishment, forgiving and moving on. What I can't get with is attempting to justify the poor decisions to keep JT on a moral pedistal. It simply was a series of bad decisions.

 

[ginn421]

You're right he was between a rock and a hard place, but we are often measured by the choices we make it difficult times. His choice here was apparentlyquite poor. I can get with accepting the punishment, forgiving and moving on. What I can't get with is attempting to justify the poor decisions to keep JT on a moral pedistal. It simply was a series of bad decisions.

You're absolutely right. My only point is, JT never claimed to be on a pedestal...WE put him there, then call for his head and burn him in effigy when he doesn't act like an infallible character. That being said, in relation to other CFB coaches (which is what he should be compared against), he is a cut above, IMO.

 

[Onebuckfan]

PLEASE what JT did was stupid wrong in violation of NCAA rules but it was not immoral..there was justification for punishment the administration chose not dismiss JT and gave him the suspension,etc. The NCAA will have their say then it will be time to move on. IT seems their is more to the whole incident but it may never come out....In summary JT was wrong what more is there to discuss..

 

[Jaxbuck]

Telling vs offering are two very different things...did he force you to read the book and enact everything that was said in it? I have read the book and the strategies he suggests are merely a means to motivate as a way to reach one's goals. Never does it explicitly state what those goals should be person to person.

Never read them and never will. One has to assume a stance of superior knowledge to teach a subject. Sorry if that doesn't fit the way you want to perceive him.

I'll give you that MoC is not the best example while he was at OSU, but what did JT have to gain by helping him afterward? You're ignoring a whole other part of the story. Mo could not suit up for OSU or help them in any way on the field...what was his motivation there? Could it be that JT actually cared about another person that was not directly tied to his success as coach? Or maybe he was using Mo to enhance his "mythical" character that he no doubt spends every waking hour working on so message board posters think highly of him?

You are the one dealing in absolutes, not me. Tressels help of MoC afterward can be attributed to very little other than a genuine concern for the kids well being. I never said Tressel wasn't capable of that, you can't seem to come to grips with average run of the mill humans being capable of both or MoC and Ray Issac showing a precedent of this type of behavior which torpedo's the twisted logic in excuse #1 below.

And I think this is naive. Never being caught breaking NCAA rules does not mean it never happens. Believe it or not, JT and OSU have a huge target on their backs.

So now everyone cheats and Tressel was just busted because he's such a target? A week and a half ago the company line was Tressel did not cheat. Period.

This has been beat into the ground already, but I truly believe JT was in a no-win situation:

-Report the claim: possibly cause a man to become disbarred, disrupt a federal investigation, and potentially endanger a season by suspending players who may or may not have been guilty (ended up that they were).

-Keep it to himself: we know what the consequences are for this scenario.

No mention of keeping it to himself just so happening to keep his star players eligible I see. Or of simply coming clean when it was clearly out of the bag back in December.

Everyone is free to believe whatever they like but intelligent, learned and well meaning men once would have bet the lives of their families on the Earth being flat. Almost overnight it was proven to be round and I'm quite sure a lot of them had a hard time coming to grips with it as well.