Yahoo, Tattoos, and tOSU (1-year bowl ban, 82 scholly limit for 3 years)

[Steve19]

Steve, lots of respect for you. But I totally disagree with this paragraph. I can't spare you the "I don't care about others" argument. I don't care about others. We are an arrogant fanbase and we should hold ourselves to higher standards than everyone else. Everyone else doing it is no defense for us. I love Ohio State, but I liked college football a lot more when I thought we were running a cleaner program than we apparently are. It's disappointing. I thought we were better than everyone else, on and off the field.

I agree. College football has reached a point that demands a complete restructuring of the NCAA and its investigatory capabilities. When Reggie Bush can just buy off the people who can hang him and the program, when the NCAA can just shrug off the implications of Cam Newton's father's marketing efforts in direct violation of their regulations, something is rotten.

However, I don't think many people would deny that just about every other major program in the country is affected by the kinds of problems affecting Ohio State. With all those tats on the field in any college game, nobody else got a discount. Many other respected college coaches haven't looked the other way to avoid knowing? Any of us who have taught at Ohio State, or otherwise been boosters, know very well how thorough the attempts to maintain compliance with NCAA regulations is.

So, to expect Ohio State to be able to control the actions of every player and official is incredibly unrealistic. If a pattern of corruption is shown, such as the allegations about car deals, then that is a matter for censure. However, contacts between compliance and car dealers can be explained by compliance motives as well.

Our problem is that a coach we all thought would be above reproach, who has been known to baptize others for goodness sakes, engaged in deception about the Tat 5 and his explanation does not read very well at this stage. Possibly that changes in the future and his explanation is more believable when explained in greater detail. Like I say, I am prepared to await the results of an investigation.

However, here is my point. The underlying assumption in the position you take, which I respect, is that a coach or players should not break the rules at Ohio State. I agree.

What I find problematic is all of the supposition and criminalization of Coach Tressel. I have yet to see any proof that any law has been broken. In fact, I don't even think that is alleged. The football team is achieving one of the highest levels of performance in the classroom of any program, despite the characterization of Ohio State players as uneducated thugs by some folks on BP these days. And this team has regained a level of performance on the field that has not been seen since the 1970s.

So, I share your passion for Ohio State being a place where the good guys are supposed to be. I hope that you share my reluctance to paint the good guys who are playing and coaching at Ohio State with the kind of tar brush media hacks are flailing about with. Refusal to join a lynch mob doesn't mean one does not support justice.

There is a deeper problem here than Ohio State. It lies with the unparalleled influence and financial clout of the networks, the exorbitant salaries paid to coaches, and a general worldwide decline in ethical behavior. Ohio State still is the place where the good guys are but even good guys sometimes make mistakes. The difference is that they own up to their mistakes and pay for them.

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

Here's a question some posters may find uncomfortable. Do you really think that Ohio State players have done anything that players at every large university haven't done?

as long as there is the love of money and there is the stupidity of people, then student-athletes everywhere will break the rules in similar ways.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

There is a huge difference between awaiting the outcome of an investigative process and being a homer. If you look, you will see several posters on this site asking for other posters to modulate their criticism of players or coaches from opposing teams until accusations are investigated.

The allegations about Gibson's car didn't turn out to be true. I have no doubt that other allegations will prove equally false. However, I am open to the notion of innocent until proven guilty and that guilt may exist. One doesn't have to be "all-in" to avoid rushing to judgment. We know what Tressel and the Tat 5 admit to, now we await news of any other dirty laundry.

.

Actually, with the exception of the $0 for Gibsons car, every story has actually turned out to be WORSE than initial reports. Tressel turned out to have had knowledge of the Tat 5 before the initial public reporting before the Sugar Bowl. Then, it turned out that Tressel had knowledge even before season began. Then, it was revealed that Tressel turned out to have known before his signed statement to the NCAA, which means he flat out lied to the NCAA. Tressel turned out not to have kept the info to himself but shared it with Pryor's....uhhh life coach. Archie didn't have just one conversation with the car dealer in question but more like fifty.

You know I respect you Steve, but how in the hell can you have NO DOUBT that other allegations will be proven false. The track record over the last few months should lead one to expect things to ultimately be worse than what is initially reported.

As for guilty until proven innocent, Tressel had that from me up until the revelation that he provided Pryor's mentor with information that he willfully withheld from the NCAA. Whatever good Tressel has accomplished for Ohio State has been more than undone by the national shitstorm that HIS ACTIONS have placed her in this year. He lost any further credibility or trust from at that point, and I can only hope that the wheels in Bricker Hall are only waiting for the final NCAA report before acting.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

What I find problematic is all of the supposition and criminalization of Coach Tressel. I have yet to see any proof that any law has been broken. In fact, I don't even think that is alleged. The football team is achieving one of the highest levels of performance in the classroom of any program, despite the characterization of Ohio State players as uneducated thugs by some folks on BP these days. And this team has regained a level of performance on the field that has not been seen since the 1970s.
.

Nobody is accusing Tressel of criminal acts. What has been shown is that he withheld information of NCAA violations from his superiors (while sharing it with his star quarterback's hometown mentor), lied about those violations to the NCAA and put The Ohio State University (his employer) into a national public relations shit storm.

What I expect to happen to him is no different than what I would expect to happen to any coach (regardless of their on the field record) or any administrator or faculty member who acted with similar incompetence and disregard for the potential consequences of their actions.

Sometimes people need to be fired. It doesn't mean that they never did anything good during their time on the job or that they're inherently bad people. It just means that they've screwed the pooch at such a level that the organization and them need to part ways. I've always maintained that Ohio State University is bigger than its football program and any head coach. Now's the time for it to prove it.

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

Actually, with the exception of the $0 for Gibsons car, every story has actually turned out to be WORSE than initial reports. Tressel turned out to have had knowledge of the Tat 5 before the initial public reporting before the Sugar Bowl. Then, it turned out that Tressel had knowledge even before season began. Then, it was revealed that Tressel turned out to have known before his signed statement to the NCAA...

someone here doesn't know when the certification of compliance was signed. someone here is creating more stories.

Tressel turned out not to have kept the info to himself but shared it with Pryor's....uhhh life coach.

are you fabricating another "story"? don't you recall the nodding of his head and the "mm-hmm" when asked whether he forward the emails to anyone (before smith stepped in)?

Archie didn't have just one conversation with the car dealer in question but more like fifty.

weak. from day one, the dispatch has been way off-target in regards to the car allegations. do you really think that archie is going to lie about something that can be so simply verified by phone records?

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

someone here doesn't know when the certification of compliance was signed. someone here is creating more stories.

The confirmed timeline now has JT knowing about the violations in April. The compliance certification is traditionally signed right before an upcoming season. Do YOU have evidence that it was done before April?

are you fabricating another "story"? don't you recall the nodding of his head and the "mm-hmm" when asked whether he forward the emails to anyone (before smith stepped in)?

What am I fabricating? It's proven that JT shared the info with the mentor. That he tried to admit to at the press conference before Smith stepped in doesn't change the underlying fact. Just that Smith is rotten, incompetent and in need of removal.

weak. from day one, the dispatch has been way off-target in regards to the car allegations. do you really think that archie is going to lie about something that can be so simply verified by phone records?

Maybe he lied, not thinking quick enough to realize there would be a paper trail of his conversations. Maybe he's just stupid. If the reporter deliberately fabricated Archie's quote, wouldn't the OSU media person have made that point and demanded the release of the reporter's notes and/or tapes. He didn't, and all he could come up with was the lame bit of spin that Archie was really only referencing the 1 conversation while salesman was at that specific dealer AND admitting that there were many more while he was at another dealership.

 

[Steve19]

ORD, I respect also your passion for Ohio State. You may misunderstand my position.

Tressel has admitted wrongdoing in withholding information about the Tat 5 and paid a high price. Within days, the full nature of his transgression was visible, as you describe. How wonderfully transparent, after the subterfuge at USC, the skulking around about Cam Newton at multiple institutions in the SEC, and the outright cover up attempts at ND after that unfortunate young lady claimed to have been sexually attacked by a player and then committed suicide last year.

Having experienced compliance internally at Ohio State, admittedly some time ago but while Tressel was coach, I have faith in the institutional support for compliance. Others posting on BP with more recent experience seem to share my views in this regard.

I think that the portrait you paint is a bit different than I would paint in respect of the other allegations. Gibson's car was not only supposedly sold for $0 but also it was supposed to be a 300C. Turns out to be a 300 model that was previously used as a rental car. Turns out that he has paid a loan on it since its purchase. Turns out that several forms existed showing the correct price and financing arrangements prior to the press stories, but these were ignored in favor of one silly mistake on a computer-produced form.

In the time since the admission, we have all these allegations flying about, such as those made by a former player who we all know to have had well publicized disciplinary problems at Ohio State. According to some reports, fans should be in breathless anticipation about impending doom because of more than 50 car deals at one dealership. Alternatively, we are hearing that nothing untoward has happened. We are supposed to be waiting with anticipation for the hammer to fall, yet media slime are oozing all over Columbus trying to get "further evidence" or "substantiate findings." Other posts tell us they have nothing. An ESPiN story was coming. Now, an SI story is coming. Or not.

So, who's winning here? The largest alumni and fan base in the country gets tweaked and keeps bumping up those advertising revenues for the media slime. If they have something, then they should do the respectable thing and turn it over to the NCAA and print it immediately. All of this innuendo has no goal except to keep this thing raw, to blow it out of proportion and to drive traffic so that advertising revenues can be increased.

When I say "I have no doubt that other allegations will prove equally false. However, I am open to the notion of innocent until proven guilty and that guilt may exist", I mean precisely that I am open to the notion that some of the new allegations may prove true, even if I think it is unlikely, but that I am sure some allegations will be proven false.

Not saying that any of this applies to you, ORD, but I am not prepared to visit these sites looking for news because I know it is nothing but opinion anyway. In any event, I know that every visit is tracked and encourages additional coverage of baseless allegations and opinions about them.

What I feel strongest about is that I am also not prepared to do and say things that undermine players and coaches at Ohio State who are innocent, including endless speculation that undermines preparation and morale for the current season. I am sure that the University will find the right and appropriate response to the NCAA findings, precisely because I believe the good guys are still at Ohio State.

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

The confirmed timeline now has JT knowing about the violations in April. The compliance certification is traditionally signed right before an upcoming season. Do YOU have evidence that it was done before April?

i was just pointing out how you were creating another "story," when, in fact, they were just the same story:

Then, it turned out that Tressel had knowledge even before season began. Then, it was revealed that Tressel turned out to have known before his signed statement to the NCAA

What am I fabricating? It's proven that JT shared the info with the mentor. That he tried to admit to at the press conference before Smith stepped in doesn't change the underlying fact.

what "underlying fact"? the underlying fact that, as you implicitly stated, tressel claimed that he never relayed the information to anyone else ("Tressel turned out not to have kept the info to himself")? again, during the press conference, he nodded his head and responded with a positive indication ("mm-hmm") when asked if he forwarded the emails to anyone.

Maybe he lied, not thinking quick enough to realize there would be a paper trail of his conversations. Maybe he's just stupid. If the reporter deliberately fabricated Archie's quote, wouldn't the OSU media person have made that point and demanded the release of the reporter's notes and/or tapes. He didn't, and all he could come up with was the lame bit of spin that Archie was really only referencing the 1 conversation while salesman was at that specific dealer AND admitting that there were many more while he was at another dealership.

or maybe you're stupid to believe that newspapers never misrepresent quotes or never provide selected details when the complete details are far less salacious. read the dispatch's initial report on "cargate." notice how they presented the nada and kbb representatives' opinions on the purchase prices versus the estimated prices. the dispatch reported that the reps found that the estimated prices were greater in almost half of the transactions. sounds bad, doesn't it? sounds like the players got unfairly good deals, doesn't it? of course, that is how the dispatch wanted it to appear. of course, any person who thinks just a little more would realize that if the estimated prices were greater in almost half of the transactions, then it stands to reason that the estimated prices were less than the transaction prices in at least half.

yeah, archie is the only one spinning here.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I am sure that the University will find the right and appropriate response to the NCAA findings, precisely because I believe the good guys are still at Ohio State.

We'll see. I do believe that they still are there....in the faculty, the board, the foundation and Bricker Hall...and in the end those constituencies will do what needs to be done.

I won't speculate on good or bad people in the athletic department, but I'm not encouraged at the level of professional competence or institutional control over the football program coming out of there and feel that if Tressel needs to lose his job so too do several members of the AD staff including Gene Smith.

Yes, Ohio State self-reported the emails when discovered. That, so far, has been the only silver lining in this debacle and our only hope for avoiding lack of institutional control sanctions. Other than that, I've seen nothing terribly forthcoming from the AD. Rather, I've seen stonewalling and obfuscation at every turn They grudgingly admit to something only when their fingers are publicly burned: JT sharing the emails with Pryor's mentor and the 50 conversations with the salesman being the two examples springing to mind.

If Gene Smith was really all about coming clean, why didn't he allow JT to admit sharing those emails at the initial press conference? That seems to be the one incident in this whole thing where JT was willing to be upfront and in front of what was going on and not merely admit to what had already been reported, and Smith cut him off.

Despite some earlier accusations, I'm not out to hang Tressel because of his "faith." Until the sharing of the emails became public, I was content to see him return. I now feel his time at Ohio State needs to come to a close because his actions have been irreconcilably detrimental to his employer--my alma mater. It is exactly how I feel about Gene Smith and Doug Archie of whom I know exactly nothing of their faith or lack thereof.

 

[buckeyeinfla]

I feel the SI article will give osu another black eye in the media and public perception....but won't be anything the NCAA doesn't know about or will have no bearing on sanctions...


basically SI will have their submission entered into the media jihad vs osu

 

[buck1973]

Maybe he lied, not thinking quick enough to realize there would be a paper trail of his conversations. Maybe he's just stupid. If the reporter deliberately fabricated Archie's quote, wouldn't the OSU media person have made that point and demanded the release of the reporter's notes and/or tapes. He didn't, and all he could come up with was the lame bit of spin that Archie was really only referencing the 1 conversation while salesman was at that specific dealer AND admitting that there were many more while he was at another dealership.

If there was an actual quote from Archie in the article, I would agree with you. Without seeing what was actually said and its context, I am open to believe that there may have been a misunderstanding. You could very well be correct, but I have not seen enough evidence to make a judgement one way or the other.

 

[MaxBuck]

I thought we were better than everyone else ... off the field.

Until you can find a way to invent The More Perfect Human, this is unlikely to be the case.

I've never had the illusion that Ohio State football players were morally superior to players elsewhere, and I can't figure out why anyone would think they could be.

 

[Onebuckfan]

Until you can find a way to invent The More Perfect Human, this is unlikely to be the case.

I've never had the illusion that Ohio State football players were morally superior to players elsewhere, and I can't figure out why anyone would think they could be.

And I never had the illusion about a Div 1 football coach being morally superior..

 

[MaxBuck]

And I never had the illusion about a Div 1 football coach being morally superior..

Not sure what your point is. Did Jim Tressel ever make a claim of being "morally superior?" The fact that others seem to have dumped this expectation into his lap shouldn't be projected onto him.

Ultimately, the top collegiate coaches I'm familiar with are, IMO, generally of a higher moral character than the average man on the street. There are of course exceptions, but they don't seem to thrive for very long. But that's just my opinion.

 

[3074326]

Until you can find a way to invent The More Perfect Human, this is unlikely to be the case.

I've never had the illusion that Ohio State football players were morally superior to players elsewhere, and I can't figure out why anyone would think they could be.

I was more referring to the fact that we self-reported and looked like we did our best to run a clean program. I'm happy with the kinds of student-athletes we get here for the most part, as well. I hold OSU to a higher standard than other schools, fair or not.