World University Rankings (MEGAMERGE)

[Gatorubet]

Something about a rubber mallet? Brain and mallet?

Ryan Mallett!!

 

[goodguy]

Attrition rates (not including medical attrition) between the two leagues would add to your argument. Or better yet, a ratio of players that sign LOI to the number of players that are actually are accepted. How bout graduation rates, especially for African Amercan athletes?

As far as reputation goes, Florida, Vaderbilt and Mississippi (Oxford) have positive images outside the south. As for the rest........
Tennessee, Kentucky, and LSU seem to be the worst of the worst.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

There's absolutely no comparison between the Big Ten universities and the SEC universities for overall academics. Anyone arguing the contrary is just being a foolish homer. I don't know where you're getting Ole Miss at a level with Vandy and Florida. Ole Miss' only national recognition is really that some famous writers went there and lived in Oxford. Other than that it's viewed as a rather mediocre, third tier school. It's also interesting that the only two SEC public universities that have built themselves up to Big Ten standards are Florida and Georgia--the two schools (and states) benefiting most from the cultural changes brought about by huge numbers of northerners relocating over the last quarter century.

As far as football players' academics, that's another story. There was a time when the Big Ten separated itself from the other conferences in its academic policies for athletes (no athletic dorms, gpa and degree progress requirements that were significantly higher than NCAA requirements, and a very minimal recruitment of JC and "Prop 48 athletes). Today, I'm not so sure that gap exists--or at least not to the degree it did twenty years ago.

I'd like to see some data (broken down by school) on incoming football players' test scores/class rank/gpa as well as lists of majors once they are in school and what their graduation rates are. I'd also want to see how those input and output numbers compare with the student body at large. Lacking that, it's impossible to really answer the argument, but my gut tells me the gap between the Big Ten and the other BCS conferences in this regard is not what it once was.

 

[Gatorubet]

There's absolutely no comparison between the Big Ten universities and the SEC universities for overall academics.

I think that you sufficiently opposed the argument nobody made.

Anyone arguing the contrary is just being a foolish homer.

Invisible straw man is sad.

I don't know where you're getting Ole Miss at a level with Vandy and Florida. Ole Miss' only national recognition is really that some famous writers went there and lived in Oxford. Other than that it's viewed as a rather mediocre, third tier school. It's also interesting that the only two SEC public universities that have built themselves up to Big Ten standards are Florida and Georgia--the two schools (and states) benefiting most from the cultural changes brought about by huge numbers of northerners relocating over the last quarter century.

True. Only when we began to see our pasty white skinned neighbors carrying squash rackets and reading the Iliad in the original Greek did we collectively decide to fore go mouth breathing and lynchings and try to morph ourselves into more highly evolved (but slower of foot) sapians.
Relative size of state population, University enrollment, number of alumni, and Endowment revenues flowing from the former were of no moment, but at last sufficient number of northern educated residents were gratefully received into our collective bosom, and, as we all said then, we "larned a beter weigh to done it."

*Edit As much as it pains me to waste a really good pissy response, if Ord was referring to increased population, school size, alumni base and endowment size as what he meant as "cultural changes brought about by huge numbers of northerners relocating (to the south)" then yeah. I wasted all of that smart ass for nothin'...(untrue actually, as it is a renewable resource of vast proportions), and beg his pardon. If he meant the improvement of the academic institutions via some other cultural aspect, er, then we might still be yakking. Ord will let me know. Big boy with a fine ability to communicate, as demonstrated on many occasions. I note that the cultural phenomenon of economic draws Gawja and Florida also getting huge numbers of southerners from other states is not mentioned. Maybe I inferred too much. Won't be the last time. :tongue2:

As far as football players' academics, that's another story. There was a time when the Big Ten separated itself from the other conferences in its academic policies for athletes (no athletic dorms, gpa and degree progress requirements that were significantly higher than NCAA requirements, and a very minimal recruitment of JC and "Prop 48 athletes). Today, I'm not so sure that gap exists--or at least not to the degree it did twenty years ago.

I'd like to see some data (broken down by school) on incoming football players' test scores/class rank/gpa as well as lists of majors once they are in school. Lacking that, it's impossible to really answer the argument, but my gut tells me the gap between the Big Ten and the other BCS conferences in this regard is not what it once was.

Yes, I agree with your assumption, but as the inferiority of the SEC admissions standards was the central thesis of the argument, some facts might be nice.

 

[Steve19]

Here are the scores from the Princeton Review. Unfortunately, it appears that many SEC schools, TSUN and some others do not appear to release average SAT scores.

Where Your SAT and ACT Scores Will Take You | The Princeton Review:stupid:

When comparing schools against historical scores, remember that the SAT scores showed their largest drop in 31 years for the class of 2006. That also highlights the incredible improvement at Ohio State.

 

[BengalsAndBucks]

Yes, I agree with your assumption, but as the inferiority of the SEC admissions standards was the central thesis of the argument, some facts might be nice.

If my reading comprehension is Big Ten good, then what I believe that ORD was saying is exactly what you were saying- that among footballers, there is almost no difference between the SEC and Big Ten (in terms of academics, anyway ).

If you were speaking to calibuck's central thesis of the arguement then I agree that without facts about the athlete's themselves nothing is proven.

 

[Gatorubet]

If my reading comprehension is Big Ten good, then what I believe that ORD was saying is exactly what you were saying- that among footballers, there is almost no difference between the SEC and Big Ten (in terms of academics, anyway ).

Well, we have a few itty bitty views remaining that are not lock step - but that's cool.

 

[calibuck]

Sorry to create such a firestorm. I concede that the Princeton Review or USNWR does NOT give us the admissions standards for the SEC or B10 (or anyone else for that matter) athletes. As far as the ranking of the schools in the nation, then yes, the B10 schools are superior to those of the SEC (based on the 15 criteria that USNWR utilizes). If Princeton Review (SAT's as a predictor of academic success?)uses are different, then they have their own rankings.

So, without further ado, I retract my statement that the SEC athletes are of a lower academic standing out of HS than those of the B10. One of the posters mentioned that the B10 used to have higher admission standards, for athletes, but do not anymore. Whether the schools 'take a chance' on an inferior HS performer (academically, not 40-wise), is up to the individual academic institution (subject to NCAA minimums).

Ultimately, the schools prepare their students for working careers, so whether they are 'qualified' or not would be 'ranked' by the hiring authorities, or graduate schools that would accept/hire those individuals. In the case of student/athletes, they would be looked over by the Pro teams, and that measure would be who is drafted.

Therefore, I admit to a 'leap of faith logic' in saying that the SEC schools take prospects who might not qualify for B10 admission, because there are no facts to back it up. And inference cannot be proven either, only surmised.

:gobucks3::gobucks4:

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Well, we have a few itty bitty views remaining that are not lock step - but that's cool.

C'mon, gator. You don't find it mildly curious that the only two SEC public universities that have dug themselves out of the academic ghetto just happen to be the two flagship universities in the two Southern states most effected by North->South migration?

I'm not saying that other factors weren't at play. I'm not, however, so sure about endowment growth. Florida's 1.2 billion would put it near the bottom of the Big Ten, and Georgia's 0.5 billion wouldn't even be a player by Big Ten standards.

 

[Gatorubet]

C'mon, gator. You don't find it mildly curious that the only two SEC public universities that have dug themselves out of the academic ghetto just happen to be the two flagship universities in the two Southern states most effected by North->South migration?

I'm not saying that other factors weren't at play. I'm not, however, so sure about endowment growth. Florida's 1.2 billion would put it near the bottom of the Big Ten, and Georgia's 0.5 billion wouldn't even be a player by Big Ten standards.

To be absolutely fair Ord, It has everything to do with the increased population growth of the two states, and the significant improvement in the economies of the two states. Both have benefited economically more than any other area of the south. You can't throw a rock without hitting bank in Florida, with all the new (mostly northern) residents coming in with retirement money, and the business/Disney/vacation industries.

Pure increased numbers of students/demand for space puts the pressure on, and entrance GPA and ACT/SAT averages increase, leading to more selective admissions and better qualified students. More money in the education budgets and more, richer people and businesses to contribute raises the standards of the institution as facilities and faculties improve.

It snowballs. I agree with all of that. The "cultural" thing made me a bit gun shy, not knowing the whole intent of that remark. Sorry.

 

[OSU_D/]

Endowment

C'mon, gator. You don't find it mildly curious that the only two SEC public universities that have dug themselves out of the academic ghetto just happen to be the two flagship universities in the two Southern states most effected by North->South migration?

I'm not saying that other factors weren't at play. I'm not, however, so sure about endowment growth. Florida's 1.2 billion would put it near the bottom of the Big Ten, and Georgia's 0.5 billion wouldn't even be a player by Big Ten standards.

Assuming accuracy, the list is endownments greater than 1 billion. Vandy and UF are the only SEC schools on this list. Iowa is the only Big 10 NOT on the list.

List of U.S. colleges and universities by endowment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Gator,
I know my family is down there helping out the GA and FL economic scene; but if I have anything to do w/ it I'll be in the historic part of Charleston, SC. But FL in general needs to step up the level of its public K-12 education - at least according to my fam, an ex boss, a couple friends who teach down there, and an ex g/f. They all advocate going private in FL.

 

[cincibuck]

What you might want to check are the academic levels of each states public schools. A state college draws MOST of its students from the state itself. I know I often steered good students who couldn't get into Miami or OSU honors to Kentucky and Tennessee because they could get into good programs (as oppossed to 'general studies') get breaks on out of state and scholarship monies because KY and TN were trying to upgrade the general student body by bringing in kids from northern high schools.

Likewise, at least in the 60s, OSU benefitted from the many kids they were able to draw from the east coast, particullary NY and NJ.

 

[calibuck]

50 Top National Universities - B10 vs SEC

Since the topic came up, and I've still go the magazine nearby, let me educate us all on the top 50 Public universities out there......

3) University of Michigan:(
8) University of Illinois
8) University of Wisconsin
16) Penn State
............17) University of Florida
19) Ohio State University:)
24) Purdue University
24) University of Iowa
29) MIchigan State University
29) University of Minnesota
33) Indiana University
............42) University of Alabama
............45) University of Auburn
............45) University of Tennessee

Didn't realize that University of Georgia was private, knew Vandy was, but again the disparity between 'top-rated' educational facilities above the Mason-Dixon line and below. Note: there are some top-rated B12 schools, all of which are below the Mason-Dixon line.

:gobucks3::gobucks4:

 

[cincibuck]

What all of these 'ratings' mean is up for debate. For example, Indiana is rated lowest in the Big 10, yet their music program is one of the top three or four in the nation, comparing favorably with CCM at University of Cincinnati, USC and Julliard. Iowa's English department is very strong and the Iowa summer writers program is one that draws top talent from across the nation. Mizzou's school of journalism has a fine reputation. OSU's college of education has long been a national leader.

Top students who have a specific program in mind may well choose a school that doesn't seem to carry as much 'BMW' weight because of a particular program within the school.

I also suspect that some part of how schools get ranked has to do more with snob appeal than any significant difference in the quality of the education offered. A local example: many of my fellow adjuncts at NKU also teach at U Cincinnati and Xavier. So you can get Professor X at UC for freshman comp at one price, or pay three times that and get him for freshman comp at Xavier.

The rankings in USN&WR are based on several factors, some of which are subjective... as I recall their system they have professors at schools submit rankings of programs at other schools... what an invitation to lead with your bias. Like boosting the school where you got your PHD, or siding with one theorist in a particular field over another, or where people from your grad school program ended up.

 

[Gatorubet]

Gator,
I know my family is down there helping out the GA and FL economic scene; but if I have anything to do w/ it I'll be in the historic part of Charleston, SC. But FL in general needs to step up the level of its public K-12 education - at least according to my fam, an ex boss, a couple friends who teach down there, and an ex g/f. They all advocate going private in FL.

Well, as I have not lived there since 1979, I will have to take their word for it. EVERYBODY needs to step up K-12 EVERYWHERE. Prisons and welfare are more expensive and should be joined to the education budget as an example of what happens when you go cheap on K-12.