Tiger Woods (Offical Thread)

[Best Buckeye]

golf isn't a sport

What he said.

 

[OH10]

Most of the time in sports, the "great one's" are decided by championships..

Babe was a bad example to illustrate that point

No he's not a bad example. He's the perfect example. He was a great athlete, no doubt. But I notice that you didn't cite any stolen base records or fielding percentages. What you noted is that the guy could stand in the batters box, swing a bat with tremendous proficiency, and using exceptional hand-eye coordination to hit the better than anyone else in his day.

He also did a pretty damn good job of standing on the mound and throwing the ball.

I'm baffled how that takes more athleticism that what Tiger does. The only difference is that the ball is moving and its bigger. In fact, when Tiger hits the ball, he actually has to have touch, some finesse - like a shooter in basketball. As with a pitcher, he has to use intelligence and creativity.

But make no mistake about it: To hit the ball like Tiger does, you have to be a tremendous athlete. If you don't think so, you haven't truly played the game of golf beyond simple hacking.

So John Daly is a top athlete?

I could show you a picture of Babe's fat ass chewing on a cigar and ask the same question. The only difference is that Daly "could" have been really good and the Babe was great.

Tiger is great.

golf isn't a sport

Your definition simply differs from mine. I understand that your point though. You hate golf. You hate Tiger Woods. I get it.

 

[jwinslow]

Still waiting, Stadium: #126

 

[OH10]

Could you explain some times he has shown tremendous athleticism? Not skill, raw athletics.

Players in basketball, football, baseball come along all the time who are tremendous athletes but not great technicians. Some, like Hester, are superstars without even being capable of playing CB or WR at the ACC level.

So where is the sign of his tremendous athleticism?

It's semantics really. For me, pure athleticism doesn't make you a great athlete. It means you have the potential to be a great athlete. You have to take the talent and develop it in a sport, and become great at. I no doubt consider golf to be a sport - and a difficult one at that. So the fact that Tiger is the G.O.A.T. means to me that he's great athlete.

If you don't think so, then I doubt you could ever have an appreciation for what he does on the tee box. And its not worth debating further if you don't see that as a sign of his tremendous athleticism. No one else in the world - even if they spent all day, every day, trying - can do what he does on a consistent basis. And that's not like saying he's Bobby Fischer or the Black Widow. If you don't know the difference, it's really inexplainable.

Find me a guy who can hit trick shots in pool. Unreal control and skill in his craft doesn't make him an athlete.

If you don't see that it's not the same thing, then again, its not really worth debating.

Are there not fat men in golf who can make similarly ridiculous shots?

Yes, and there are fat men that can play basketball too. (Hello Oliver Miller and Tractor Traylor). But very few, and even those few are good athletes that simply do not fit the stereotype on the exterior.

I think his athleticism for his sport is outstanding, and he's perfected his craft and body about as far as can be done. But that doesn't put him in the same zipcode of the complete freaks like Lebron. Conversely, his high potential and athleticism doesn't put him in Tiger's galaxy.

It's simply a different kind of athlete. Maybe its just a difference of opinion, but issue isn't as black and white as how high one can jump or how fast one can run.

 

[fourteenandoh]

Raw athletics is the shot Tiger hit in the 2000 US Open at Pebble Beach on the (i believe) 7th hole. He was about 180 out, the green was about 50 feet above the fairway and he was in 6 inch rough. He smoked a seven iron out of there and ran it up onto the green. That was strength and athleticism at its best. There may be one or two other people on the planet that could have hit that shot. Another one that comes to mind is the US Open at Olympia Fields in Chicago. He was about 250 out and had a big oak tree about 50 yards in front of him. He hit a three wood that started 100 yards left of the green and sliced it around the tree within 10 feet of the pin. These are shots that take an unbelievable amount of strength to pull off. I played olympia and tried that shot. I got it around the tree but came up 80 yards short.

I tried to find a video but couldn't.

 

[jwinslow]

It's semantics really.

I guess so. When you watch Tiger sink a 30 ft putt do you honestly stop and think, "boy, that sure was athletic"? I don't. I think how remarkably gifted, difficult, clutch (and a number of other "sports" terms) that was, but it wasn't athletic. He himself possesses athletic qualities in his game, and there was athleticism required to make every shot on the course... but it's a different kind of adjective for 'athleticism' imo.

If I see a high schooler who can do remarkable things with a bowling ball, or a bow and arrow, or other precision sporting events, I am impressed by their skill and excellence. That is the type of reaction I have when watching remarkable golf.

If I see a high schooler who glides effortlessly through a sport as though everyone else is in slow motion, whether it be basketball, football or whatever, I marvel at his athleticism. Perhaps he also possesses a great deal of skill, precision and other talents, but watching his sheer athleticism (quickness, grace, natural ability, instincts) is a far cry from what I see from the greatness taht is Tiger Woods.

Yes, and there are fat men that can play basketball too. (Hello Oliver Miller and Tractor Traylor). But very few, and even those few are good athletes that simply do not fit the stereotype on the exterior.

Except that you're hoisting up said shots as evidence of him being a great "athlete", where these fat men are able to hang with Tiger with very pitiful physical fitness, even if only in spurts.

In absolutely no way are these fat basketball players ever going to hang with Lebron, Howard or others.

 

[Steve19]

That's a bit over the top though and I think you realize that.

Isolated sounds jack up a shot b/c it's unexpected. If they decide to allow noise and cameras going during shots, fine. At least then the players could anticpate it and not be distracted. But you can't expect players to just play through unexpected noises mid-swing. And if a hard stance isn't taken, it'd happen 30x more frequently than it currently does.

I agree with you. Isolated sounds impact on shot choice and performance. This begs the question that I posed earlier in the thread. Why does Tiger create a situation that he knows will get the crowd talking and moving when his competitors take a shot? The fist-pumping and histrionics have that consequence. He knows it. He does nothing about it.

Goosen isn't the first South African to mention Tiger's behavior. In fact, a number of international players have mentioned it and I don't think it is because Tiger beat them. It's because of the impact on the gallery and the subsequent impact when anyone is playing against Tiger.

If you think all is well, look at Nicklaus' recent comments about Tiger not having the grace to call him personally about pulling out of the Memorial. I really like watching Tiger Woods shots but dislike all of the crap that goes with it. It detracts from his greatness in my eyes and a lot of other people's eyes.

I saw something similar to what BN27 and Goosen saw, in that it did look like he limped a whole lot more after every bad shot and walked normally after every good shot.

I had pretty bad stress fractures a few times over the years due to long-distance running, according to my x-rays. How painful was that? I never really knew it until my second arthroscopy.

I guess the question is: Was Woods faking or were the adrenaline and endorphins pumping after the good shots and masking the pain? I guess none of us will ever know. I just wish he'd stop the crap when he plays and stand by the body of work that he produces on his own.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

If Nolan Ryan was a great athlete, then so is Tiger. If you don't consider any of those guys great athletes, then you just have a different definition of the term.

Nolan Ryan would kick Tiger's ass.

 

[OH10]

I guess so. When you watch Tiger sink a 30 ft putt do you honestly stop and think, "boy, that sure was athletic"? I don't. I think how remarkably gifted, difficult, clutch (and a number of other "sports" terms) that was, but it wasn't athletic. He himself possesses athletic qualities in his game, and there was athleticism required to make every shot on the course... but it's a different kind of adjective for 'athleticism' imo.

And if free-throwing shooting, like putting, were the only part of basketball, then I'd be questioning the athleticism of a Chauncey Billup. But putting is only one aspect of golf.

If I see a high schooler who can do remarkable things with a bowling ball, or a bow and arrow, or other precision sporting events, I am impressed by their skill and excellence. That is the type of reaction I have when watching remarkable golf.

Bowling actually is a sport in my opinion. It may not be a terribly difficult sport because it is so monotonous and requires very simple muscle memory, but it is a sport.

Golf is entirely different. Driving, hitting a fairway wood or long iron, chipping, hitting out of the rough, hitting out of the sand, hitting from behind a tree and making a clutch putt all require versatility of skills, strength, speed, and muscle memory.

14-0 made a good point earlier when talking about the physically impossible shots that Tiger has hit over the years. If you're a bystander simply watching on tv and haven't played the game beyond hacking, then it's difficult to truly appreciate just how hard those shots are from a physical standpoint. I could practice those shots one thousand times, and I'm simply not athletic enough to come close to what Tiger did the one time he had a chance to hit a good one.

Except that you're hoisting up said shots as evidence of him being a great "athlete", where these fat men are able to hang with Tiger with very pitiful physical fitness, even if only in spurts.

In absolutely no way are these fat basketball players ever going to hang with Lebron, Howard or others.

You're forgetting one thing. The fat players don't hang with Tiger. No one does. A player may have one fanciful weekend (ala Rocco Mediate), but they drift quickly into obscurity, while Tiger marches on.

 

[Bleed S & G]

No he's not a bad example. He's the perfect example. He was a great athlete, no doubt. But I notice that you didn't cite any stolen base records or fielding percentages. What you noted is that the guy could stand in the batters box, swing a bat with tremendous proficiency, and using exceptional hand-eye coordination to hit the better than anyone else in his day.

.968

That would be his career fielding pct.

He had 123 stolen bases as well...

Do a quick google before suggesting the Babe didn't run and couldn't field...

And I noted he was the most dominate hitter, not of his time, of all-time.

Now, Im not going to argue the Babe is the most amazing athlete to every walk the earth because he is not.. (I suggested triathlons in an earlier post) but I will say that to compare him to any golfer is a joke.

In golf, you hit a stationary ball on a tee, with a flat club.

In baseball, you hit a ball moving towards you at 90MPH that is breaking and moving, with a round club.

Both require skill, thats for sure, but retired athletes can go play golf and I doubt many golfers can step into a batters box and do well..

But make no mistake about it: To hit the ball like Tiger does, you have to be a tremendous athlete. If you don't think so, you haven't truly played the game of golf beyond simple hacking.

I don't disagree with this what so ever, but the argument others are putting forward is he is no way a "top" athlete in the world.

 

[jwinslow]

I don't disagree with this what so ever, but the argument others are putting forward is he is no way a "top" athlete in the world.

If Tiger is considered an athlete, which he probably is in my book, he's easily the greatest one at his respective sport.

But that's a completely separate category to me than where he stacks up looking at sheer athleticism.

Let's try another example, Mike Vick is not in Tom Brady's zipcode as a quarterback, and Brady is an excellent athlete. However, Brady is not in Vick's zipcode in sheer athleticism, or as an "athlete".

Heading into Jan 08, Brady was nearly peerless in his sport (or so was the hype), and easily one of the top people who is an athlete. That should not place him atop a list for athletes imo, which is where freaks like Vick, Lebron and others belong.

 

[Wingate1217]

I don't know if golf is a sport or not but I remember a story....

Ted Williams (I believe?) was talking to either Ben Hogan or Sam Snead and reportedly was stated to the golfer how hard could it be to hit a little ball that was stationary. He had to hit a ball usually coming in over 90 miles an hour and it was moving up down and never was two pitches the same.....

Snead (I think it was Snead) replied, Ted what do you do with your foul balls? Ted shook his head not understanding, "Well nothing.." In which Snead replied, "Well I have to play mine......"

 

[Bleed S & G]

If Tiger is considered an athlete, which he probably is in my book, he's easily the greatest one at his respective sport.

But that's a completely separate category to me than where he stacks up looking at sheer athleticism.

Let's try another example, Mike Vick is not in Tom Brady's zipcode as a quarterback, and Brady is an excellent athlete. However, Brady is not in Vick's zipcode in sheer athleticism, or as an "athlete".

Good post Jwins - this sums up my feelings

Snead (I think it was Snead) replied, Ted what do you do with your foul balls? Ted shook his head not understanding, "Well nothing.." In which Snead replied, "Well I have to play mine......"

Thats a cool story, I read Ted Williams Science of Hitting during the summer between 7th & 8th grade and I think that story was in there - but because Snead rips one into the woods and has to play it doesn't mean it's harder to hit a golf ball..

When the ball leaves the pitchers hand, a batter has the blink of an eye to judge where the ball is, where the ball is breaking, where the ball will be when the bat comes through the zone, and whether or not it's a strike.

I guess the best way to illustrate how hard it is to hit a baseball..

A .300 hitter is consider a very good hitter.. that means 3 out of 10 at bats he gets a hit.

If MJ was a 3/10 shooter he would never been in the NBA. In baseball, it means you're an All Star.

 

[zincfinger]

Why is Tiger considered one of the top athletes in the world?

He plays golf.

Because many people's definitions of "one of the top athletes in the world" is driven as much by marketability as it is driven by athletic prowess. I play golf, I watch golf, I love golf. And yet, there's no doubt in my mind that, while Tiger is clearly very fit, excellence in golf does not require the same basic athletic capabilities that, say, excellence in football or basketball does. But, golf is a sport, moreover it's a very popular spectator sport, and Tiger's the best at it. Hence, one of the world's top athletes.

 

[zincfinger]

If Tiger is considered an athlete, which he probably is in my book, he's easily the greatest one at his respective sport.

But that's a completely separate category to me than where he stacks up looking at sheer athleticism.

Let's try another example, Mike Vick is not in Tom Brady's zipcode as a quarterback, and Brady is an excellent athlete. However, Brady is not in Vick's zipcode in sheer athleticism, or as an "athlete".

Heading into Jan 08, Brady was nearly peerless in his sport (or so was the hype), and easily one of the top people who is an athlete. That should not place him atop a list for athletes imo, which is where freaks like Vick, Lebron and others belong.

But would you have any problem with someone labeling Brady as on of the top athletes in the world (or the country)?