The Race Card

[OSU_Buckguy]

so i see tal's grandfather fled poland to escape the nazis. i wonder if tal would be at princeton if his grandfather had instead been a black man from namibia fleeing the nazi concentration camps. had a black man from namibia emigrated to the united states many decades ago, he certainly would have had fewer barriers placed in between him and entrepreneurship than a pale-skinned jew in the new york area would have.

 

[The KSB]

do you live in westchester county?

No, at the moment I live in Oklahoma. I did a little Google research and think I got it. Please let me know if I have this right. I gather that this is a logical fallacy that is supposed to refer to the children of the wealthy. However its current use infers that all white people have a built in advantage to other races. That I have had opportunities that others lacked. Whether this is accurate or not seems irrelevant since it is an ad hominem attack, the type of phrase Bill Maher throws out when he’s lost a debate. An example of how to use it in a conversation might be as follows.


Mr Republican: All of the new health care regulation makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible for people to start their own businesses.

Bill Maher: Check your privilege!

Audience applauds

 

[The KSB]

so i see tal's grandfather fled poland to escape the nazis. i wonder if tal would be at princeton if his grandfather had instead been a black man from namibia fleeing the nazi concentration camps. had a black man from namibia emigrated to the united states many decades ago, he certainly would have had fewer barriers placed in between him and entrepreneurship than a pale-skinned jew in the new york area would have.

I'm not convinced this is inherantly true, nor does it negate the hard work and sacrifice that was required of his family.

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

I'm not convinced this is inherantly true, nor does it negate the hard work and sacrifice that was required of his family.

first, "negating the hard work and sacrifice" is a straw man. fortgang's exaggeration is a nice rhetoric ploy if it goes unnoticed.

second, do you really think that the obstacles the average jewish man faced in the new york area during the 40s were remotely close to what the average black man (or, more apt to this discussion, an african immigrant) was facing?

 

[Jaxbuck]

So because of the way things were in the past we teach a whole new generation of blacks that they aren't accountable for their own situations? We don't empower them with the satisfaction of knowing they can do it (be successful) themselves? While at the same time we try and lay guilt on a generation of whites for the crime of being born to families that have worked hard and been successful?

It's hard for me, being a person who was raised in an environment of personal accountability, to see the current meme of "blame whitey for your troubles" as being inherently healthy for young blacks to hear.

 

[The KSB]

first, "negating the hard work and sacrifice" is a straw man. fortgang's exaggeration is a nice rhetoric ploy if it goes unnoticed.

second, do you really think that the obstacles the average jewish man faced in the new york area during the 40s were remotely close to what the average black man (or, more apt to this discussion, an african immigrant) was facing?

I will say most likely the obstacles are greater for the African immigrant. I cannot say that with any certainty though. I am not from New York, and beyond one weekend I've never been there. But for the sake of furthering the discussion I will say you are most likely correct. However, starting from nothing is still starting from nothing. That you come from a family that is hard working and successful does not meet the definition of privilege as it seems to be being used. If it applies to this particular man I cannot say with any certainty. If I accept his background as he has presented it then I would say it does not. I assume he still had to put in the long hours to get the requisite grades, extracurriculars, and SAT score to be accepted into Princeton. I don’t see anything about him being a legacy, or his parents donating large amounts to Princeton. I suppose it’s possible though. Calling his argument a straw man fallacy is inaccurate. The entire purpose of using the phrase “check your privilege” is to negate the possibility that somebody has reached their place in life through any other means than their ancestry. That hard work and sacrifice on their own part is largely irrelevant to any accomplishment.

 

[buckeyegrad]

Costello: What's the guy's name on first base?

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third, we're not talking about him.

Costello: Now how did I get on third base?

 

[MaxBuck]

Costello: What's the guy's name on first base?

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third, we're not talking about him.

Costello: Now how did I get on third base?

Just got me thinking about all the time I spent in my youth trying, and usually failing, to reach third base.

If I'd thought checking my privilege would enhance my chances of reaching third base (and especially of reaching home plate), believe me, I'd have checked that privilege every day and twice on Sunday.

 

[Taosman]

So because of the way things were in the past we teach a whole new generation of blacks that they aren't accountable for their own situations? We don't empower them with the satisfaction of knowing they can do it (be successful) themselves? While at the same time we try and lay guilt on a generation of whites for the crime of being born to families that have worked hard and been successful?

It's hard for me, being a person who was raised in an environment of personal accountability, to see the current meme of "blame whitey for

your troubles" as being inherently healthy for young blacks to hear.

I do agree with such an idea that the wrong message could be sent. As someone who came from a low income family(my father worked only half the time in one of the many Wheeling Steel plants in the Rust Belt) Every thing I have I got through very hard work. But there has to be a "middle ground" in how much we help minorities and the unemployed. That just makes economic sense. "Teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime". So why aren't we spending money to "teach" the unemployed?

 

[AKAK]

first, "negating the hard work and sacrifice" is a straw man. fortgang's exaggeration is a nice rhetoric ploy if it goes unnoticed.

second, do you really think that the obstacles the average jewish man faced in the new york area during the 40s were remotely close to what the average black man (or, more apt to this discussion, an african immigrant) was facing?

Well, in reverse order, while the degrees of difficulty may not be equal, it's likely in my opinion, that a jewish guy in the 40's is gonna be rather accutely aware of his Jewishness and, if all this nazi escaping is indeed the case, then, I imagine its probably one of those things where they had different priviledge than say a midwest landowning farmer of anglo saxon descent.

Now, having said that, I think our guy Tal probably doesn't "get it" all that well, but the reason he probably doesn't get it is that the folks using it, are using it as a bludgeon (that apparently Tal thinks is to make him feel guilty) or at any rate, more likely as itself a rhtorical device itself, rather than acknowledging his world view/opinion. The old red herring.... probably stinks as much as the race card.

 

[Bucklion]

I do agree with such an idea that the wrong message could be sent. As someone who came from a low income family(my father worked only half the time in one of the many Wheeling Steel plants in the Rust Belt) Every thing I have I got through very hard work. But there has to be a "middle ground" in how much we help minorities and the unemployed. That just makes economic sense. "Teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime". So why aren't we spending money to "teach" the unemployed?

And what exactly should we be teaching them that we aren't?

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

I will say most likely the obstacles are greater for the African immigrant. I cannot say that with any certainty though. I am not from New York, and beyond one weekend I've never been there. But for the sake of furthering the discussion I will say you are most likely correct.

i wasn't discussing "are." i was discussing "was." both jews and blacks faced difficulties in the 40s, but the african immigrants had it far worse in terms of obstacles placed in front of advancement (not including that pesky thing of not being able to be a naturalized citizen due to skin color until the 50s).

this is the point that the teenage author glides right over. he is rightfully proud of his grandfather's accomplishments and what it has meant for his family; however, he apparently doesn't understand that even his grandfather had an inherent "leg up." that is privilege and it has afforded the fortgang family the eased ability to own a business and send children to nice schools.

how likely is it that a namibian man who fled the nazis in the 40s would have quickly started a business in the united states and formed a family that sent a child to princeton?

standing on someone's shoulders doesn't make you a giant.

However, starting from nothing is still starting from nothing.

not all nothings are equal and not all can equally escape from nothing.

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

Well, in reverse order, while the degrees of difficulty may not be equal, it's likely in my opinion, that a jewish guy in the 40's is gonna be rather accutely aware of his Jewishness and, if all this nazi escaping is indeed the case, then, I imagine its probably one of those things where they had different priviledge than say a midwest landowning farmer of anglo saxon descent.

no offense, but i don't at all follow what you're trying to say.

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

just curious...

for those of you who nod your head in agreement when reading fortgang's essay, do you also think christmas is being taken away from us?

yes, that's an honest question.

 

[Taosman]

And what exactly should we be teaching them that we aren't?

Maybe it's the "messenger" and not just the "message". Certainly, when they see a white guy saying they should "learn to pick cotton" that is the wrong message. And how do we explain tries to take away their basic right to vote?
http://www.diversityinc.com/diversi...-exclude-5-million-blacks-latinos-from-polls/