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Star Wars (May the Force be with you)

exhawg: "If you knew how The Usual Suspects, and Fight Club were going to end consider me impressed."

I never saw Fight Club, and I didn't know how the Usual Suspects would end (great movie, btw). I did, however, figure out the ending to the Sixth Sense, but that was because I heard going in that the ending was a plot twist. I kept racking my brain to figure out the ending throughout the movie, and it finally came to me about 10 minutes before the bomb was dropped.

"In Episode 4 (I think) Obi-Wan tell Luke that he tried to teach Anakin like Yoda had taught him, but Yoda didn't train Obi-Wan."

It was actually in the Empire Strikes Back (Episode V) when Obi-Wan says, "You must go to the Dagobah System. There you will find Yoda. The Jedi Master who instructed me ..." Ben also says to Yoda (later in the movie): "Was I any different when you taught me?"

There was no mention of Yoda in Star Wars (Episode IV).
 
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Thump: "With all of this Star Wars geekdom, I have one question, have any of you guys ever been laid?"

You have 3,485 posts on an Internet message board & you're asking this question? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ..

If this thread bothers you so much, don't read it.
 
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Sloopy45 said:
exhawg: "If you knew how The Usual Suspects, and Fight Club were going to end consider me impressed."

I never saw Fight Club, and I didn't know how the Usual Suspects would end (great movie, btw). I did, however, figure out the ending to the Sixth Sense, but that was because I heard going in that the ending was a plot twist. I kept racking my brain to figure out the ending throughout the movie, and it finally came to me about 10 minutes before the bomb was dropped.

"In Episode 4 (I think) Obi-Wan tell Luke that he tried to teach Anakin like Yoda had taught him, but Yoda didn't train Obi-Wan."

It was actually in the Empire Strikes Back (Episode V) when Obi-Wan says, "You must go to the Dagobah System. There you will find Yoda. The Jedi Master who instructed me ..." Ben also says to Yoda (later in the movie): "Was I any different when you taught me?"

There was no mention of Yoda in Star Wars (Episode IV).
Duh :smash:
my bad

I got one for you. At the end of Episode 6 from the box set that came out last year the ghosts of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin appear to Luke. In the original Anakin was an older guy with a beard, but in the recent box set Anakin looked to be Hayden Christensen. Did I see this correctly?
 
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Sloopy45 said:
Thump: "With all of this Star Wars geekdom, I have one question, have any of you guys ever been laid?"

You have 3,485 posts on an Internet message board & you're asking this question? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ..

If this thread bothers you so much, don't read it.
I keep checking to see if buckeyegrad posted his response yet.
 
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exhawg: "In the original Anakin was an older guy with a beard, but in the recent box set Anakin looked to be Hayden Christensen. Did I see this correctly?"

Yes. Lucas superimposed Christiansen over the older actor who originally played Anakin for the DVD release. FYI: that actor (forget his name) didn't have a beard.

Lucas also made a few more changes to the DVDs: he superimposed Ian McDermid over the actor who first played the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back (also slightly changed the dialogue), he put Jango Fett's voice in for Boba Fett's voice (because he's now supposed to be a Clone), and he put a new CGI Jabba the Hutt in Star Wars to replace the fake/shitty CGI Jabba he originally put in the Special Editions.
 
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Ok, finally saw it last night. While it is light years ahead the first 2, it is not better than the 4-6. I did love the action sequences and what I have done for alot of "action" movies is disregard alot of the akward romance and slow sections. You have to go in it expecting action and special effects and little story. It helped me to actually enjoy it.

exhawg said:
I just remembered possibly the worst inconsistency. In Episode 4 (I think) Obi-Wan tell Luke that he tried to teach Anakin like Yoda had taught him, but Yoda didn't train Obi-Wan.
That is easy, as Yoda is the Master of the Jedi you would think everyone can say he taught them. It is convenient to say Yoda taught him because he was teaching Luke at the time. But just like in the original episodes there was inconsistencies that can be explained away as "a certain point of view". Little white lies that Obi-Wan told alot of in 4-6.

Vader killed Anakin. Well he did and if only one movie was made you wouldn't know any worse. The twins inconsistency, really is it that big to care whether she remembered her mother or was just saying that to Luke? The bigger one can be about Obi-Wan not knowing about the twins. Of course he may know about them but does not want anyone to know. Remember he told Luke to bury his feelings. You can easily explain him saying that later as to conceal her idenity.

Of course the "he is our only hope", do you really think a female could overthrow Darth Vader? So it can easily be seen as sexism on that conversation.
 
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Thump: "I keep checking to see if buckeyegrad posted his response yet."

No sweat. Its a bit of a touchy subject for me lately, because I recently broke up with my chick & haven't gotten any in (exactly) 37 days. And counting ..

Didn't mean to start anything with ya, I'm just edgy.

And if you want buckeyegrad's response, I'll post it for you: 'Revenge of the Sith is the Greatest Movie Ever! Its between Dr. Zhivago and Citizen Kane as the greatest American movie ever made!!'

Piney: "The twins inconsistency, really is it that big to care whether she remembered her mother or was just saying that to Luke?"

Why in the world would she just be 'saying that?' I don't get your logic here.

"Of course he may know about them but does not want anyone to know. Remember he told Luke to bury his feelings. You can easily explain him saying that later as to conceal her idenity."

Again, I'm not getting you logic here. His spirit was told by Yoda: "No. There is another .." Who exactly is he hiding it from at this point? Its just his spirit and Yoda talking at the time.
 
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Sloopy45 said:
exhawg: "In the original Anakin was an older guy with a beard, but in the recent box set Anakin looked to be Hayden Christensen. Did I see this correctly?"

Yes. Lucas superimposed Christiansen over the older actor who originally played Anakin for the DVD release. FYI: that actor (forget his name) didn't have a beard.
David Prowse played Anakin in the original movies, with his voice coming from James Earl Jones, as I'm sure you knew.

But the fact that I remembered his name must prove to Thump that I am still a virgin living with my parents. :wink2:
 
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bb73: "David Prowse played Anakin in the original movies, with his voice coming from James Earl Jones, as I'm sure you knew."

David Prowse played the body of Darth Vader, not Anakin, in the old movies. Sebastian Shaw (just looked it up) played Anakin in Return of the Jedi.

Prowse was a world champion body-builder, and a tall imposing man. Which is another problem I have with Revenge of the Sith: when Christiansen is in the Darth Vader suit, he looks like a stack of dimes. Prowse is about 60 lbs. heavier than the kid. It was a bad choice to put him in the suit.

FYI: Clive Revill (before Ian McDermid) played the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back.
 
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BuckeyeBill73 said:
.
But as far as other things not making sense, maybe Obi-Wan didn't finish him off because he had been his mentor for years. Obi-wan hasn't seen the original 3 movies, and probably can't imagine how powerful and evil Vader will become.
Obi Wan has no idea that Palpatine is coming to rescue Anakin. As far as he knows, Anakin is going to die a slow and painful death by getting burned up by that lava or bleeding to death from his wounds. If he really cares about the guy, wouldn't he finish him off quickly so that he wouldn't suffer so much? To me that seems the most likely scenario. Exhawg is right; what that scene needs is for Palpatine to come swooping in to rescue Anakin before Kenobi has a chance to finish him off.
 
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Buckeyegrad's Official Review of the entire Star Wars saga or Defending Lucas’ Masterpiece:<O:p</O:p

I viewed RotS Saturday afternoon and thought it was brilliant. A few more viewings will be necessary before I make a final judgment, but I would have to put this one as second only to Empire Strikes Back.

As I have argued on other threads, the reason Star Wars has near-universal appeal and such success is its story. (I recommend Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces to everyone who wants to get into the psychology of why). RotS does an excellent job with completing the overall story arc of Star Wars, which is important since it is the story’s primary focal point. This is especially in Star Wars’ primary conflict: predestination vs. free will. As we all know, Anakin is the chosen one to fulfill an ancient prophesy of bringing balance to the force. This is a destiny he cannot escape and which he fulfills in Return of the Jedi. What we see in the prequels, but especially in RotS is that although Anakin is predestined to a certain fate, he has the free will to determine the path in which his fate will be achieved. This is why Anakin's decision to save Palpentine and turn on Mace Windu is the most dramatic scene in the movie, the prequel trilogy, and only second in the entire saga to Vader's opposite choice in Return of the Jedi.

Also wrapped in Anakin’s decision is the primary moral question in the movie and saga: does the end justify the means? In RotS, this question is phrased through Anakin’s question of is embracing the power/knowledge of the Dark Side justified if it is to save Padme and his children’s lives? Anakin’s answer is yes! We learn from the story that the correct answer would have be no. Anakin’s decision ultimately is the cause of Padme’s death, allows for the rise of the Empire, the decline of civilization, the destruction of Alderaan, etc.

The other major theme in Star Wars is the tension between when one is acting out of love for others and love for self, and how the two are easily confused. Here again, the conflict’s focal point is in RotS. Anakin believes he is acting out of love for others when he seeks the knowledge and power of the Dark Side, but in fact he is pursuing the love of self. It is not really for the well-being of Padme and his children that he makes his decision; it is for the selfish reason of not wanting to lose her. It is not until Return of the Jedi that Anakin finally acts for the love of others, specifically Luke. It is at that moment when he sacrifices himself in order to save Luke, thereby fulfilling his destiny and justifying the end through the means.

As for why people are critical of the prequels despite the quality of the story, I believe there are three primary reasons. The first reason is that many of the older viewers remember the old trilogy through the nostalgic lenses of childhood. Now that they have grown-up and their views have matured, they are unable to enjoy the story and special effects because of the poor dialogue and bad acting. The second reason is that Star Wars is not a modern or post-modern story in that its primary focus is something other than character development. Modern and post-modern story telling revolves around the personal development of characters. It explores the psychology of individuals in order to explain their actions. However, Star Wars is told in a mythological style, where character development is non-essential and the events of the plot drive the story. For example, we are not given the psychological reasons Beowulf wishes to kill Grendel, Aeneas seeks to found <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:place w:st="on">Rome</ST1:place></st1:City>, or Frodo suffers to destroy the Ring. Similarly, the focus of the Star Wars story is not to tell why Anakin chose the Dark Side. It is the event of choosing the Dark Side that is important and what occurs as a consequence. This is why many feel Anakin’s choice to submit to Palpantine appears shallow and too quick. They expect to see a greater exploration of Anakin’s character and motives, but the story is not told in that manner.

The third reason, the so-called inconsistencies, why people are dissatisfied with the prequels can be divided into two sub-categories. The first sub-category consists of those who generally don’t appreciate fantasy/science-fiction. These people are easily dismissed because they expect the story to fit within our own reality. However, a general rule of fiction is that as long as there is a consistent, internal logic within the story then the mismatch to our reality is not a problem. The second group of people who expect everything to fit perfectly within the internal logic of the Star Wars story forget what type of story they are witnessing. Here again, the modern mind requires one thing, but the mythological story does not deliver it. Specifically, moderns expect consistency between every fact of a story. The problem is that mythology is not concerned with facts, but with truths. If you study different mythologies you begin to realize that the facts of the story are secondary to the truths that are being conveyed. Mythologies contradict themselves quite often in facts, but not in truths. Hence, two facts in Star Wars might appear to contradict each other on the surface, but they convey the same truth. (Of course, the post-modern mind does not worry about the contradictions either since everything depends on “a certain point of view.”)

Personally, I only see one contradiction in the saga that cannot be resolved using simple logic and this is Padme’s death! How can Leia have any memories of her mother when she died giving birth to the twins? I have tried to come up with explanations, but none of them are legitimate. However, this does not take away from the story since it does not contradict the truths Star Wars conveys.

As for some of the common “contradictions” often mentioned between the old and new trilogy, here are the simple explanations:

1) In Empire Obi-Wan claims Yoda trained him, yet he is the Padawan of Qui-Gon Ginn in Phantom Menace. This is explained by the scene in Clones where we see Yoda leading an entire class of Younglings. Obviously, Kenobi belonged to Yoda’s class as a Youngling and then was assigned to Qui-Gon when he became of age to be taken as a Padawan.

2) Why didn’t R2 say he knew who Yoda was? Someone needs to tell me how he would have told Luke this. Luke never tells R2 that he is seeking Yoda until after the crash on Dangobah and the X-Wing ends up buried in the swamp. As far as I can tell, Luke doesn’t understand the literal beeps and whistles of R2, so how is the droid suppose to communicate that he knows who Yoda is with the translating device on the X-Wing? Perhaps R2 did tell him after the X-Wing was raised and he had access to the translator, but who cares at that point since Luke already knew Yoda by that time.

3) Why are the Jedi so easily defeated when Vader says the power to destroy a planet is insignificant to the power of the Force (Important note, Vader says the Force is more powerful not the Jedi or Sith). Well, let’s think about this. Do we ever see the Jedi or Sith use the Force in a manner that would surpass or even come close to the power of the Death Star in the entire saga? No, we don’t. So, our option is to consider if there is another meaning to what Vader said, and there is. The Death Star destroys, but that is it; whereas, the Force can actually create life! So, taken in light of everything it appears that Vader is saying the power to create is greater than the power to destroy and I am proof that the Force is greater for I am a creation of it. Now of course this statement is meaningless to the Imperial elites Vader it telling and hence they dismiss the comment as part of his antiquated religion.

If there are other contradictions which you think exist, please let me know as I will be glad to help you sort out the missing links.

A final observation about the Star Wars saga:

I have spent the last couple of days over on the message boards at www.theforce.net. Here you will find some of the most devoted Star Wars fans and fan boys out there. Reading their comments, you quickly begin to see that one’s age has a large impact on how they view the prequels.

Those who remember seeing A New Hope in theatres back in 1977 and 1978 are generally the most critical of the prequels. Those, like myself, who remember seeing either Empire or Jedi first and who cannot remember a time not knowing that Vader was Luke’s father are the most supportive of the entire saga fitting as one piece. There is even a segment among these people who believe A New Hope is the movie that doesn’t fit with the others because it is too slow and small in scope. Finally, there are those who were introduced to Star Wars through the prequels. These fans love the prequels, but are split on the original trilogy. Some love the older trilogy while others think they need to be entirely remade to better fit the style and atmosphere of the prequels. So in the end, when looking at the entire Star Wars saga, perhaps Obi-Wan is correct and everything does depend on one’s “certain point of view.”
 
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bg, good review, I'm glad you liked it. I saw the original in the theater in 1977, but I've actually enjoyed each movie.

I really like RotS, and thought it connected the stories well. I was also satisfied with the manner in which Anakin was turned. The nightmares and the belief that Palpatine/Sidious could teach him how to save Padme was enough for it to be believable for me.

I really like your point about modern stories vs. mythology. I recently read Homer's Iliad and The Odyssey, along with several Greek plays and Virgil's The Aeneid. There are so many inconsistencies someone could go crazy trying to find them all. Different story tellers had their own versions of the classic myths. Of course in making the movie "Troy" last year, they had to create a new set of differences.

What is your explanation for Obi-wan's spirit saying "He is our only hope" before Yoda replies "No, there is another" in Empire?

And I have another item that I'm curious what others' take is. Anakin was supposed to have no father. Palpatine at one point in RotS says that there was a Sith Lord that learned to create life. He also says that he learned everything from his master. Did anybody else make the leap that Palpatine may have learned how to create life before killing his Sith master, and used that power to create Anakin (without having sex with his mother Shmi)?

And I don't want to take the question myself to theforce.net - I think that's probably too much of a fanatic's site for me to deal with.

edit - Another explanation for Leia's "memories" of her real mother. She says "she died when I was very young" (that's surely true) but she also says "just images, really, feelings". Those images or feelings could be explained by the force allowing her to conjure up something about her mother.
 
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BuckeyeBill73 said:
What is your explanation for Obi-wan's spirit saying "He is our only hope" before Yoda replies "No, there is another" in Empire?
My only answer is that for whatever reason, Kenobi did not consider Leia a possibility. Perhaps there was no way for them to contact her since she wasn't open to the Force as of yet, unless Yoda was to leave Dangobah to find her if something did happen to Luke. I have to admit that my answer is not very satisfactory with this one and the only reason I didn't mention this problem earlier is that this inconsistency existed before the prequels (I guess the original trilogy isn't perfect like some fan boys believe). Interesting how all of the inconsistencies that cannot easily be explained revolve around Luke's twin sister.

And I have another item that I'm curious what others' take is. Anakin was supposed to have no father. Palpatine at one point in RotS says that there was a Sith Lord that learned to create life. He also says that he learned everything from his master. Did anybody else make the leap that Palpatine may have learned how to create life before killing his Sith master, and used that power to create Anakin (without having sex with his mother Shmi)?
I have had the same thoughts, but I tend to believe Anakin was a virgin birth caused independently by the Force. I think Lucas purposefully left this ambiguous, which is good story telling in my opinion. I love stories that don't answer every single question as it gives the audience/readers something to continue to think about and form their own stories.

edit - Another explanation for Leia's "memories" of her real mother. She says "she died when I was very young" (that's surely true) but she also says "just images, really, feelings". Those images or feelings could be explained by the force allowing her to conjure up something about her mother.
This is the best answer I have seen to this question, though I don't find the answer very satisfactory; however, as I mentioned before, I'm okay with it and I don't let it ruin my experience with the films.
 
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BuckeyeBill73 said:
And I have another item that I'm curious what others' take is. Anakin was supposed to have no father. Palpatine at one point in RotS says that there was a Sith Lord that learned to create life. He also says that he learned everything from his master. Did anybody else make the leap that Palpatine may have learned how to create life before killing his Sith master, and used that power to create Anakin (without having sex with his mother Shmi)?
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I noticed this too-Palpatine's comment about learning everything from his master-I think it was being implied that Palpatine was the apprentice who killed the Sith master in his sleep.

I saw the films in a weird order as a kid. Star Wars was re-released in the theaters in 1981 or 1982, and I saw it in the theater then-after Empire was released, which I was too young to care about or see. I remember seeing Jedi in the theater, but I didn't see Empire until a few years later. When I saw Empire in theater for the 1st time when I was in college, it was like seeing it for the first time-I didn't feel that way about seeing Star Wars in the theater a few months earlier. Never saw the Jedi re-release in the theater.
 
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