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Star Wars (May the Force be with you)

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BrutusMaximus said:
Kinda like watching a train wreck, ya know? I mean you know it's going to suck, but it's still cool :)
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actually, that's a great point... when this whole thing started out, the Special Effects were just sick, and revolutionized the whole movie-going experience... but let's face it, by today's standards, the effects look a little hokey... but back THEN, that stuff blew our minds, and we all went out with our 'blasters' and pretended to be Han Solo... well, now kids are out pretending to be Obi Wan... it's all the same shit... we just get jaded because we want the NT to make us feel like it did when we were kids... which just can't happen...
 
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LV: "if you hated I, and hated II, and don't think that Lucas has had a poigniant thought since 1976 or whatever, why in the world would you bother to see III?"

Ok, glad you clarified. I can see your point. But, however, I am a Star Wars fan, and I am going to check out the movie regardless. Just because I plunked down the $9 doesn't mean I pledge my support to the film or Lucas, I'm doing the very simple act of: going to see a movie. Nothing more, nothing less.

Would you rather me NOT see the movie and venture a negative opinion about it instead? That would be a pretty damn ignorant of anyone, don't you think?

"so why bother subjecting yourself to the angst of hating the man who made your life what it is, simply because he didn't do it the way you wanted him to?"

Because how am I going to know what my opinion is of the movie unless I actually go and see it? There's no predisposed notion here. Had this been a movie that I liked, I would've been the 1st person to give Lucas props.

As it turns out, I saw it, didn't like it, and the rest is history.

And easy on the "man who made your life what it is". It was my favorite movie and toy as a very young child. Lets not go overboard.

"Lucas fooled you twice, and you STILL went back for more... following the fool, so to speak..."

No, you're right in a sense. I disagree, but I can see your point. The real trick is, to figure out who is actually more foolish: the fool (Lucas) or the fool who follows him (me). I tend to say Lucas, but that's just my opinion.

"the NT will NEVER meet your expectations, because you expect it to move you like it did when you were a kid, which is an entirely unrealistic expectation"

I disagree, emphatically. A great movie is a great movie, and a bad movie is a bad movie (in anyone's given opinion) regardless of the time frame in which it is viewed. For example, I wasn't alive in the 60's (so I have no perspective there), but I can watch Easy Rider today and say, "Hey, that's a great movie." Ditto for Dr. Zhivago, Citizen Kane, or any other movie that's before our generation.

Now, keep in mind, I'm referring to the good & bad extremes of movies: ones that fall in the middle don't really apply. They can be dated, or lose luster, or whatever. For example, I remember seeing 'Cobra' in the theater as a kid & thought it was great - I saw it a couple years ago for the 2nd time a few years ago & thought it was cheesy. I don't think its a stretch to classify Star Wars as within those extremes, given its popularity & phenomenon in the late 70's-early 80's.

Had I never seen Star Wars as a kid, and just saw it today for the first time, I'm pretty sure I'd still be like, "Wow! That's a great movie!"
 
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I do agree with Sloopy that, disregarding the difference in time frame, the originals were much better movies overall than the new ones. I do think the time difference has alot to do with it, but the acting was better in the first ones, the story was deeper, and honestly the action was better.

Also keep in mind a big point here. You basically knew everything in the first 3 ahead of time..........Think of it like this. If you hadnt seen vader say "Luke.....I am your father", would you have liked the new ones better? I dont like prequels in general, because they fill in a story that I already know.
 
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BMax: "If you hadnt seen vader say "Luke.....I am your father", would you have liked the new ones better? I dont like prequels in general, because they fill in a story that I already know."

Mmmmm, I see your point, but I don't think I agree.

Let me explain: okay, before the Phantom Menace came out, everyone knew that Vader was Luke's Dad. But no one had any idea as to HOW it happened. Like any action/sci-fi movie, you know the good guy is gonna win, get the girl ("I've scheduled another meeting .. In bed."), and give a funny catch phrase at the end ("Meeting Adjourned"), but you watch to see how he does it.

Same with the 'Titanic' analogy: I never saw the movie, I know the ending, and if I was a chick, I'd probably wanna see it regardless.

Now, ever since Empire came out, we knew there was a backstory, and there are many hints dropped about HOW this happened. So, given that people waited all that time to see what these hints mean & see the backstory firsthand, I get pissed that Lucas didn't stay faithful to any of those hints, or could even muster a universal great movie, as the previous three were.
 
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You are right, however, and this is probably just from my point of view. The movie where the good guys win......I very rarely like. Now of course Star Wars is an exception to the rule. However even though I still love them, I was more of a fan of Vader than of Luke :)

Movies that have a bad ending are my favorites. Guess I am morbid like that. Take the Ring for example, or Dawn of the Dead, or Saw.
 
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I'm very much of the painting school of filmmaking, which is you put a layer on, and you put another layer on, and you put another layer on. You look at it, see how it is, redo it. It doesn't evolve linearly.
- interview, Skywalker Ranch, 27/09/96
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The above quote is one I found from Lucas describing his method of film making. I found this very interesting when considering those who complain about "inconsistencies". Those who make such complaints look at a story evolving linearly, so that something told in the past must dictate what is told in the future. However, if you look at a story being told in the fashion of the "painting school", then you begin to see why the original story changes as you tell more and more of it.

Of course people will disagree whether or not this is the best way to tell a story; but regardless, it shows that there is a system of logic supporting Lucas' creative method.
 
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bg: "The above quote is one I found from Lucas describing his method of film making."

Yeah, I knew about this. Lucas says he does most of his stuff & comes up with his ideas in post-production, actually. The entire Droid Factory scene in Attack of the Clones, for example, was developed in post-production after Lucas saw a CGI clip of Obi-Wan looking down into it. Lucas thought it looked so cool that he wanted to develop a scene in the Factory & had his animators do so.

"However, if you look at a story being told in the fashion of the "painting school", then you begin to see why the original story changes as you tell more and more of it."

buckeyegrad, you're going to find that most of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Lucas says its 'painting school,' I like to refer to it as 'making it up as you go along.'

"Of course people will disagree whether or not this is the best way to tell a story; but regardless, it shows that there is a system of logic supporting Lucas' creative method."

Well, if you take the above Droid Factory example & splash in my opinion, I thought that scene was the 2nd worst in the entire Trilogy, with the absolute worst being the very next scene where the notion of "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" was destroyed when robots & Jango Fett killed Jedi.

But hey, that's just my take. I guess I don't like "painting school" films.
 
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Sloopy45 said:
"However, if you look at a story being told in the fashion of the "painting school", then you begin to see why the original story changes as you tell more and more of it."

buckeyegrad, you're going to find that most of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Lucas says its 'painting school,' I like to refer to it as 'making it up as you go along.'
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Exactly, you are making my point brilliantly. You hold to the truth that Lucas has no logic to his story telling because you fail to see the "painting school" method. Without understanding the method by which Lucas tells a story, you simply see someone "making it up as you go along". As I stated in an earlier post, you must unlearn what you you have learned.

Another quote from Lucas, which supports another of my arguments that dialogue is a secondary, if not a tertiary matter in a Star Wars film:

...The thing I did do with Star Wars, which is something I don't think a lot of people fully understand, is that Star Wars is basically a silent movie. It's designed as a silent movie. It's sort of an Eisensteinian film. It runs completely silent with the music score. The dialogue and effects are put there for partly musical effect. And that's one of the reasons why three- and four-year-olds can watch it, or people can watch it in other countries, and it makes sense without ever knowing what anybody's saying, because it's purely a visual film. It moves along on a visual platform, rather than along a luterary one.
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Sloopy45 said:
Well, if you take the above Droid Factory example & splash in my opinion, I thought that scene was the 2nd worst in the entire Trilogy, with the absolute worst being the very next scene where the notion of "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" was destroyed when robots & Jango Fett killed Jedi.

But hey, that's just my take. I guess I don't like "painting school" films.
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i guess that i would approach that from a literal, Judeo-Christian perspective... as in, 'the ability to build a 100 megaton bomb is nothing when compared to the Power of the Allmighty.' of course that doesn't mean that someone can't shoot me just because i believe in the Power of an Allmighty God... THE FORCE was the symbol of power, not the Jedi... besides, the Jedi only use HALF of the Force, remember? they don't touch the Dark Side... which is one of the reasons that attracted Anakin... he wanted ALL the power, not just the good part...
 
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More quotes from Lucas in regards to dialogue:

It's not deliberately camp. I made the film in a 1930s style. It's based on a Saturday matinee serial from the 1930s, so the acting style is very 30s, very theatrical, very old-fashioned. Method acting came in in the 1950s and is very predominant today. I prefer to use the old style. People take it different ways, depending on their sophistication.
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I've always been a follower of silent movies. I see film as a visual medium with a musical accompaniment, and dialogue is a raft that goes on with it. I create films that way - very visually - and the dialogue's not what's important. I'm one of those people whosays, yes, cinema died when they invented sound. The talking-head era of movies is interesting and good, but I'd just like to go to the purer form.
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And regarding the love story of AotC, another often criticized part of the prequels by the original trilogy fanboys and the mindnumb, general viewing audience:

I wanted to write a love story in a style that was extremely old-fashioned, and frankly I didn't know if I was going to pull it off. In many ways this was much more like a movie that from the 1930s than any of the others had been, with a slightly over-the-top, poeticstyle-and they just don't do that in movies anymore. I was very happy with the way it turned out in the script and in the performances, but I knew people might not buy it. A lot of guys were going to see this movie, and most guys think that kind of flowery, poetic talk is stupid--'Come on, give me a break.' More sophisticated, cynical types also don't buy that stuff. So I didn't know if people would laugh at it and throw things at the screen or they would accept it. Let's face it, their dialogue in that (couch) scene is pretty corny. It is presented very honestly, it isn't tongue-in-cheek at all, and it's really played to the hilt. But it is consistant with the over all Star Wars style. Most people don't understand the style of SW. They don't get that there is anunderlying motif that is very much like a 1930s western or Saturday matinee serial. It's in that more romantic period of making movies and adventure films. And this film is even more of a melodrama then the others."
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Anybody else like Battleship Potemkin?

When I saw the first SW movie in 1977, I didn't think it was a great movie, because it was an adventure film with almost no suspense. It was like a Western in outer space, and you knew the good guys would blow up the Death Star. I thought that Close Encounters (also released in 1977) was a much better movie.

When I saw Empire in 1980, I didn't think it was a great movie, because I found the interplay among Han, Luke, and Leia to be annoying; with Han and Luke childishly competing for her affection. I did like the fact that it didn't have a formulaic happy ending.

When I saw Jedi in 1983, I thought it was the best of the 3, as the special effects just blew me away. By today's standards, of course, there are some scenes that aren't up to snuff on FX. I won't detail them because I really enjoyed the movie, and don't enjoy nitpicking every imperfect detail.

In 1999, Jar-Jar was annoying, but I liked the movie because I'd waited 16 years to see it. Like most people, I believe it to be the weakest of the 6 films.

In 2002, I went to the midnight show. My teenage son was going with some friends and our suburb requires adult supervision after midnight, so that's why I went to that showing; along with a curiosity about what the crowd of true SW freaks would be like. I enjoyed the movie, although I can remember the crowd being more excited by the Matrix trailer than most of AotC. But I've seen this movie twice recently, and think it's pretty good. Although the 'sand...smooth' line highlighted by Sloop was pretty bad, I haven't let a couple of weak romantic lines ruin my enjoyment of the film.

The current movie I saw on opening day (not midnight), and I liked it a lot. I bought the reason(s) that Anakin went over to the Dark Side, and I thought the trilogies were pretty well tied together by the plot developments. I do plan to see it again, however, in order to see some things again; and because George Lucas obviously needs the money.

These are my opinions. They just might be different from some of yours.
 
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buckeyegrad: "You hold to the truth that Lucas has no logic to his story telling because you fail to see the "painting school" method."

Actually, I really do see it. I see the painting school method, I know exactly what is going on, and I think it sucks. There's no notion of Lucas' so-called 'artistic' prowess that's going to make me like that scene, or any of his other 'make it up as you go along' scenes.

Lucas also was quoted (in EW 2 weeks ago), recanting a previous lie (as noted in the article), by saying that the idea for the Prequels was indeed an outline (not a script), & of that outline, 60% of it was used in 'Sith', 20% was used in 'Clones,' and the remaining 20% was used in 'Menace.' And to quote Lucas in the article, "In order to get Phantom Menace to 2 hours, I had to use a lot of Hamburger Helper."

So is it "Painting Method," or is it "Hamburger Helper," George?

Its a pretty good article, I highly reccomend picking it up. It exposes Lucas as the full of shit liar, ego-maniac, and phony that he is.

He even placed a 10-year old in the crowd to run up to him, hug him, and say 'Thank You!' after each different press conference at the Celebration III. He's so full of shit, his back teeth should be brown.

lvbuckeye: "as in, 'the ability to build a 100 megaton bomb is nothing when compared to the Power of the Allmighty.' of course that doesn't mean that someone can't shoot me just because i believe in the Power of an Allmighty"

Actually, you are incorrect. We believe in the Almighty, we don't wield His power. In fictional terms, Jedi do more than BELIEVE in the Force, they wield the power of the Almighty. And, if that's the case, no ones shooting me (because I can read his mind, see the future, deflect his gunshot, etc. - all thing's that're pretty much commonplace for a Jedi to do). So, megaton bomb aside, no one outside of a Sith Lord can kill a Jedi in combat (in theory, of course).

"besides, the Jedi only use HALF of the Force, remember?"

No, actually this was never established. There is the Force, and then there is the Dark Side. They're mutually exclusive, not halves of a whole. Don't believe me? Check out the below quote from Empire Strikes Back:

Luke (w/ Yoda on back): "Is the Dark Side stronger?"
Yoda: "No. Quicker, easier, more seductive"

"which is one of the reasons that attracted Anakin... he wanted ALL the power, not just the good part..."

Again, Anakin doesn't get more power by going to the Dark Side, he gets the power quicker & easier by going to the Dark Side. Again, I refer to my man Yoda:

"If you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did .. you will become an agent of evil."

Tibbs: "McBAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIINNNNNN!"

bb73: "In 1999, Jar-Jar was annoying, but I liked the movie because I'd waited 16 years to see it. Like most people, I believe it to be the weakest of the 6 films."

I actually thought Attack of the Clones was the weakest of the 5 (I say 5 now, because I need more time to rank 'Sith'). Phantom Menace had some good ideas: Darth Maul, Qui-Gon Jinn, Naboo (great setting), Nute Gunray (love him), the opening on the Trade Federation ship, and of course the ending lightsaber battle w/ OWK-QGJ-DM (2nd only to Luke & Vader in Empire). Its just weighed down by all the shit (or "Hamburger Helper") in-between.
 
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