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- Thread starter BrutusMaximus
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Thump said:
I would simply like to note that I am not a "geek", but a nerd. There is a huge difference between the two.
Geeks are not self-aware. They dress like characters when they see the movie, build their own R2D2s, blur the line between reality and the movie, and are typically 40-year olds who live in their mom's basement.
Nerds are self-aware. They compare the movies to other mythological stories (everything from the Aeneid to Beowulf to Lord of the Rings), dissect the science of the movie to determine what is possible and what is not, look for how the story attempts to resolve philosophical/theological questions, and have a social life with friends while building their own family and success.
Of course, there are also the fan boys, who are simply annoying. They become infactuated with one experience and then attack anything that is not a perfect clone of it...even if it means attacking the creator of the experience. They prefer to re-live their original experience over and over and over rather than learning from new expressions. When discussing the object to which they are attacked, they speak with the air of authority as if they just came down from Mount Sinai. In order to defend their infactuation, they will result to anything and everything, including misrepresenting the statements of others
(e.g. Sloopy, I never said Return of the Jedi was a poor movie. In fact, before the prequels I often defended Jedi as worthy of the Star Wars name to the fan boys of A New Hope and Empire; just as I am now doing with you in regards to the prequels. This is why I find your criticism of the prequels so ironic, it is the same old argument simply recycled with new names and places. People like me who defend Lucas' vision and story are always attacked by the fan boys because we do not give our loyalty to one particular movie or one particular trilogy. Instead, we try to step back and look at what Lucas was trying to do in the telling of his story and then determine if he succeeded or not.)
I'll never understand how someone can claim the creator of a story has ruined it by taking it a new direction. In my mind, it's like saying to God, "you really messed things up with this whole Jesus business. The Torah was so fantastic and awesome and then you ruined everything." I just don't get this type of reasoning.
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
buckeyegrad: "They become infactuated with one experience and then attack anything that is not a perfect clone of it...even if it means attacking the creator of the experience."
First off, lets not try to psycho-analyze me. The original Star Wars was one of the greatest movies of all time, and I don't like the new ones. I'm not alone, considering most people agree with me, and the gross for Attack of the Clones was $100 million less than the Phantom Menace.
I never asked for a clone. I asked for three more good movies, which I didn't get. The first three movies aren't clones of each other, but are good in their own way. Its not too much to ask, considering Lucas had 16 years to come up with 3 more movies.
You're attempting to bend a perspective to justify your own.
And, btw, I never insulted you so ease up on the 'annoying.' I'm much less annoying than someone who writes book-length features on how great George Lucas' shit smells without any regard for critically analyzing the work.
"I'll never understand how someone can claim the creator of a story has ruined it by taking it a new direction."
Here's the difference: on the first trilogy, Lucas did indeed come up with the idea, but his supporting talent had a HUGE role in making it what it is. Ralph McQuarrie designed the visuals for the characters, Star Wars was ghost-written for him, Lawrence Kasdan wrote Empire & Jedi, he didn't Direct (Kershner & Marquand) or Produce (Gary Kurtz did) either of the last two films, and the Directors let the actors deviate from the script and let their artistic talents define the characters.
Case in point, the Han Solo "I know" line was ad-libbed, as well as the entire C-3P0 character (all Tony Daniels), and all the puppets were brought to life by artists like Frank Oz. There was no such ad-libs, humanity, or artistic input from other talented people of any kind into the last three films.
On the 2nd trilogy, everything was Lucas and it sucked. He made himself the be-all, end-all and flopped.
So you know what that tells me? That the success of Star Wars is more a result of the talents of McQuarrie, Kershner, Kasdan, etc. and Lucas is a worthless hack who tripped over a great idea. All the other artists with input into the first films have a great track record of success. I know they're not flukes. For Lucas, I have a guy who was afraid to make a movie for over twenty years, and when he actually did do one we got Howard the Duck.
First off, lets not try to psycho-analyze me. The original Star Wars was one of the greatest movies of all time, and I don't like the new ones. I'm not alone, considering most people agree with me, and the gross for Attack of the Clones was $100 million less than the Phantom Menace.
I never asked for a clone. I asked for three more good movies, which I didn't get. The first three movies aren't clones of each other, but are good in their own way. Its not too much to ask, considering Lucas had 16 years to come up with 3 more movies.
You're attempting to bend a perspective to justify your own.
And, btw, I never insulted you so ease up on the 'annoying.' I'm much less annoying than someone who writes book-length features on how great George Lucas' shit smells without any regard for critically analyzing the work.
"I'll never understand how someone can claim the creator of a story has ruined it by taking it a new direction."
Here's the difference: on the first trilogy, Lucas did indeed come up with the idea, but his supporting talent had a HUGE role in making it what it is. Ralph McQuarrie designed the visuals for the characters, Star Wars was ghost-written for him, Lawrence Kasdan wrote Empire & Jedi, he didn't Direct (Kershner & Marquand) or Produce (Gary Kurtz did) either of the last two films, and the Directors let the actors deviate from the script and let their artistic talents define the characters.
Case in point, the Han Solo "I know" line was ad-libbed, as well as the entire C-3P0 character (all Tony Daniels), and all the puppets were brought to life by artists like Frank Oz. There was no such ad-libs, humanity, or artistic input from other talented people of any kind into the last three films.
On the 2nd trilogy, everything was Lucas and it sucked. He made himself the be-all, end-all and flopped.
So you know what that tells me? That the success of Star Wars is more a result of the talents of McQuarrie, Kershner, Kasdan, etc. and Lucas is a worthless hack who tripped over a great idea. All the other artists with input into the first films have a great track record of success. I know they're not flukes. For Lucas, I have a guy who was afraid to make a movie for over twenty years, and when he actually did do one we got Howard the Duck.
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tibor75
Banned
A movie with shitty dialogue can't be good. Unless it's a Steven Seagal flick. I love the idiot critics who say, "Sure the dialogue sucks, but who watches Star Wars for the dialogue?" Uh, it's hard to enjoy anything when you're either cringing or laughing at every other line.
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
Tibbs: "A movie with shitty dialogue can't be good. Unless it's a Steven Seagal flick."
How can you criticize the dialogue of a great American actor who gave us lines like:
"One thought he was invincible, the other thought he could fly ... they were both wrong!"
"Tattoos, I'm tellin' ya, without that gun & that badge, this guy's nuthin'!"
"I'm gonna take you to the bank, Senator .. to the blood bank!"
"Yeah, well ... I also cook."
"Who is this fucking cherry?"
"Lento's ... yeah, come on over, we'll give you a table."
Extra credit to anyone who can tell me which Seagal movie each of those lines is from & what Seagal's character's name is in said movie. Triple extra credit if you can tell me the name of the villain.
How can you criticize the dialogue of a great American actor who gave us lines like:
"One thought he was invincible, the other thought he could fly ... they were both wrong!"
"Tattoos, I'm tellin' ya, without that gun & that badge, this guy's nuthin'!"
"I'm gonna take you to the bank, Senator .. to the blood bank!"
"Yeah, well ... I also cook."
"Who is this fucking cherry?"
"Lento's ... yeah, come on over, we'll give you a table."
Extra credit to anyone who can tell me which Seagal movie each of those lines is from & what Seagal's character's name is in said movie. Triple extra credit if you can tell me the name of the villain.
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Sloopy,
I think this is our major difference: you are a fan of movies and rate the six Star Wars movies accordingly. I am a fan of mythology and epic stories and rate the Star Wars saga accordingly.
What I don't get is why you feel the need to trash Lucas and the prequels relentlessly. You have been doing so for the past month on this board...why the crusade, why take it so personally? If you don't like the movies, fine, state your displeasure and move along.
When I came on here, I defended the Star Wars saga and Lucas because I see a great story being told. Sure, it is a story that has been told a thousand times throughout history, but I find Lucas' telling very unique. In fact, as a result of Star Wars I see this same story being told in many more venues than I would have otherwise noticed.
So maybe you are not a fan boy, but you sure do argue like one. Perhaps I missed your appreciation for cinema, something I do not share with you...but, if this is the case, I don't understand why you feel a need to criticize the prequels every chance you get.
P.S. "Governor Tarkin, I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board!"
Yeah, that is award winning dialogue right there.
I think this is our major difference: you are a fan of movies and rate the six Star Wars movies accordingly. I am a fan of mythology and epic stories and rate the Star Wars saga accordingly.
What I don't get is why you feel the need to trash Lucas and the prequels relentlessly. You have been doing so for the past month on this board...why the crusade, why take it so personally? If you don't like the movies, fine, state your displeasure and move along.
When I came on here, I defended the Star Wars saga and Lucas because I see a great story being told. Sure, it is a story that has been told a thousand times throughout history, but I find Lucas' telling very unique. In fact, as a result of Star Wars I see this same story being told in many more venues than I would have otherwise noticed.
So maybe you are not a fan boy, but you sure do argue like one. Perhaps I missed your appreciation for cinema, something I do not share with you...but, if this is the case, I don't understand why you feel a need to criticize the prequels every chance you get.
P.S. "Governor Tarkin, I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board!"
Yeah, that is award winning dialogue right there.
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
bg: "What I don't get is why you feel the need to trash Lucas and the prequels relentlessly."
Basically, my reasoning is this: I love these movies as much, if not more than, anybody. I mean, I really, really, love the old movies. They're a part of my life, considering that the first 8 years of my life revolved around them.
I waited for 16 years for the new movies and was bitterly dissapointed by the fact that they were bad movies.
That's why I take it personally, and that's why I don't 'move along' as you say. I love Star Wars as much as you do. I don't however, love it enough to defend the prequels. Asking me to 'move on' would be like asking you to 'move on.' Could you do it?
And as far as Lucas is concerned, I trash him because I blame him for this disaster. Also, he acts arrogantly, he constantly lies about the creation of the movies (like saying he had a prequel script all along when he really didn't), dismisses the people (like me) who loved the movies, and hasn't taken blame for a single thing that's gone wrong (Jar-Jar) along the way. Its all the fans fault. They changed, I'm the genius, they're a-holes, and what I say is all that matters. Well, maybe its not the fans fault. Maybe its just the fact that the movies suck.
And, lets be honest: he let no other creative input into these movies other than his own. It took many brilliant, artistic people to make Star Wars what it was. He believed his own headlines about him being the sole creator of this phenomenon & shut those people out this time around, to horrible results.
Basically, my reasoning is this: I love these movies as much, if not more than, anybody. I mean, I really, really, love the old movies. They're a part of my life, considering that the first 8 years of my life revolved around them.
I waited for 16 years for the new movies and was bitterly dissapointed by the fact that they were bad movies.
That's why I take it personally, and that's why I don't 'move along' as you say. I love Star Wars as much as you do. I don't however, love it enough to defend the prequels. Asking me to 'move on' would be like asking you to 'move on.' Could you do it?
And as far as Lucas is concerned, I trash him because I blame him for this disaster. Also, he acts arrogantly, he constantly lies about the creation of the movies (like saying he had a prequel script all along when he really didn't), dismisses the people (like me) who loved the movies, and hasn't taken blame for a single thing that's gone wrong (Jar-Jar) along the way. Its all the fans fault. They changed, I'm the genius, they're a-holes, and what I say is all that matters. Well, maybe its not the fans fault. Maybe its just the fact that the movies suck.
And, lets be honest: he let no other creative input into these movies other than his own. It took many brilliant, artistic people to make Star Wars what it was. He believed his own headlines about him being the sole creator of this phenomenon & shut those people out this time around, to horrible results.
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
bg: "Yeah, that is award winning dialogue right there."
What about: "Escape is not his plan. I must face him. Alone."
"Who's more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"
"Cheessa neenjah mah wongee Chewbacca"
(At last we have the mighty Chewbacca)
I can go on and on and on about the GREAT lines from Star Wars, Empire, & Jedi. Those three might be the most quoted movies of all time.
Thump: "Please tell me you are kidding."
Of course I'm kidding. What 8 year old likes Star Wars? I was chasing girls back then, smoking two packs a day, writing a thesis on 'War & Peace,' looking to start a career in Quantum Physics, and started shaving.
By the time I was 10, I had to go into Betty Ford. Who had time for stupid movies like that??
What about: "Escape is not his plan. I must face him. Alone."
"Who's more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"
"Cheessa neenjah mah wongee Chewbacca"
(At last we have the mighty Chewbacca)
I can go on and on and on about the GREAT lines from Star Wars, Empire, & Jedi. Those three might be the most quoted movies of all time.
Thump: "Please tell me you are kidding."
Of course I'm kidding. What 8 year old likes Star Wars? I was chasing girls back then, smoking two packs a day, writing a thesis on 'War & Peace,' looking to start a career in Quantum Physics, and started shaving.
By the time I was 10, I had to go into Betty Ford. Who had time for stupid movies like that??
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First off, do you know how to freaking quote people on here instead of typing in italics all the time?Sloopy45 said:
Second,
What I meant by that comment was, didn't you have other things that were important to you at that age besides obsessing over Star Wars?
Like maybe playing on your little league team or camping with your family or something?
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Well-- Here's my review of R of the S... and some other thoughts.
I did try to read most of this thread.. and while I might address some of the the concerns comments of others... it jsut out of you guys making me think about some things a little more... not because I'm really disputing your points.
Anyway.. my first impressions are these.
First... Christensen did one hell of a turn around from Clones.... way way better performance... he clearly understands the character a LOT better in this movie... and that was really the big shame of the last one. IF you think about it... Anakin/Vader is really the only intersting character in the series.... he's the ony one who gets to be multifaceted in any meaningful way.... and I think he went overboard in clones showing off only the rage that would eventually lead him to the dark side... rather than the conflict that would ultimately end in him turning Sith Lord... I mean, not many of the other characters are even allowed to be all these things... Jedi are pretty boring personalitywise by definition... singular of focus... no emotino and all that... we got to see Luke in 4-6 and Kenobi in 1-3 go through a "maturation" process... but that's more of a path of gaining wisdom or enlightenment... and they end up pretty one dimensional... HC did a pretty nice job showing the conflict... which ultimately leads to Luke using the premise that there is 'still good in him' to trun Vader against the Emporer at the end of Jedi.
Second thing I liked... and someone pointed out that it didn't take much for Anakin to go down the dark path... but I think the whole point is that in Empire, on Degobah, and here... you find out that it really doesn't take much... and that "good an bad" is a point of view... and rarely an absolute... Are the Jedi good for "spying" on Palpatine" is Palpatine bad for eaploring other parts of the force? (Palpatine is bad becasue he is power hungry)... Point is that you theoretically wouldn't have to be a sith Lord or a Jedi to use the force... and that you could be somewhere in between.
Ian McDermid.... great job as Palpatine.....
I alos think that the story ended up making the first two a lot better.... and you understand more about why Anakin had to go through all the crap he did to get to where he ended up.... and you understand more about the machinations of Palpatine after the fact, playing both sides of the war to grab power from the Senate.... I think the biggest problem of the prequel series was the lack of a second group of stroy lines to lean on... In Empire and Jedi Lucas can lean on the tribulations fo Han and Leia while Luke is tending to the business of overthrowing the Emporer... what if there had been no Jabba the Hut segment in Jedi... or no Han and Leia to save at the cloud city and there had just been an arranged fight between Skywalker and Vader... In the prequels... all the side stories... Anakin's mother and the relationship with Padme are much less satisfying because the necessarily end up badly... Anakin can hardly have much of a good personal life and still end up a Sith Lord...
As far as the Cheesiness with Artoo, etc... hey... I got past the Ewoks... I got past this stuff.... tremendous ending to this trilogy, where I was worried it could still get worse.
I did try to read most of this thread.. and while I might address some of the the concerns comments of others... it jsut out of you guys making me think about some things a little more... not because I'm really disputing your points.
Anyway.. my first impressions are these.
First... Christensen did one hell of a turn around from Clones.... way way better performance... he clearly understands the character a LOT better in this movie... and that was really the big shame of the last one. IF you think about it... Anakin/Vader is really the only intersting character in the series.... he's the ony one who gets to be multifaceted in any meaningful way.... and I think he went overboard in clones showing off only the rage that would eventually lead him to the dark side... rather than the conflict that would ultimately end in him turning Sith Lord... I mean, not many of the other characters are even allowed to be all these things... Jedi are pretty boring personalitywise by definition... singular of focus... no emotino and all that... we got to see Luke in 4-6 and Kenobi in 1-3 go through a "maturation" process... but that's more of a path of gaining wisdom or enlightenment... and they end up pretty one dimensional... HC did a pretty nice job showing the conflict... which ultimately leads to Luke using the premise that there is 'still good in him' to trun Vader against the Emporer at the end of Jedi.
Second thing I liked... and someone pointed out that it didn't take much for Anakin to go down the dark path... but I think the whole point is that in Empire, on Degobah, and here... you find out that it really doesn't take much... and that "good an bad" is a point of view... and rarely an absolute... Are the Jedi good for "spying" on Palpatine" is Palpatine bad for eaploring other parts of the force? (Palpatine is bad becasue he is power hungry)... Point is that you theoretically wouldn't have to be a sith Lord or a Jedi to use the force... and that you could be somewhere in between.
Ian McDermid.... great job as Palpatine.....
I alos think that the story ended up making the first two a lot better.... and you understand more about why Anakin had to go through all the crap he did to get to where he ended up.... and you understand more about the machinations of Palpatine after the fact, playing both sides of the war to grab power from the Senate.... I think the biggest problem of the prequel series was the lack of a second group of stroy lines to lean on... In Empire and Jedi Lucas can lean on the tribulations fo Han and Leia while Luke is tending to the business of overthrowing the Emporer... what if there had been no Jabba the Hut segment in Jedi... or no Han and Leia to save at the cloud city and there had just been an arranged fight between Skywalker and Vader... In the prequels... all the side stories... Anakin's mother and the relationship with Padme are much less satisfying because the necessarily end up badly... Anakin can hardly have much of a good personal life and still end up a Sith Lord...
As far as the Cheesiness with Artoo, etc... hey... I got past the Ewoks... I got past this stuff.... tremendous ending to this trilogy, where I was worried it could still get worse.
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Zurp
I have misplaced my pants.
Should Lucas have asked you what his movies should be? If he wants to make his movies, let him make his movies. I don't see why you think he's out to offend you or anyone else.Sloopy45 said:
This thread is pretty funny. Sloopy and BuckeyeGrad bickering, and Thump making fun of everyone. (Let's see if Sloopy can come back with another "jizz-mopper," or similar comment.)
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