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Penn State Cult (Joe Knew)

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Mike80 said:
yadda yadda yadda - $60 million bucks isn't a joke. Neither is losing the shared bowl revenue from the Big Ten. The NCAA has no criminal jurisdiction, but it sure as hell does have jurisdiction on policing it's members and that's exactly what they did (and they were wayyyyy to lenient for my tastes)....

You're confusing personal culpability with institutional culpability. No the NCAA's penalties don't necessarily carry the same weight as a criminal penalty, but to those that really want to be associated with the NCAA, they really want to have a clean slate. And before you say they didn't have any previous penalties, this is a school that had NO compliance office of any type and punishments were usually limited to being shipped off to a branch campus or being made to clean the erector-set stadium they have....

Quit taking your talking points from BWI already....
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I have never (and I doubt will ever) read the BWI forums. I actually had to look that up to see what it was, at first I was wondering why you were talking about an airport haha. These are my opinions. Not disagreeing with what you're saying, but expanding on it: If they wanted a clean slate, then they should have disassociated the university. That would have been significant. 60 Million dollars seems like a lot to the average Joe (punn intended), but to Penn State, it's about 3% of their endowment. I guarantee they lost a lot more than 60 million in the collapse of 2008. Yes, it's a lot of money, but it's not that significant of money. And I know they wrote articles saying that they might have to take out a loan to pay it off, yada yada yada. That's just to add to the PR 'it hurts so much story.' Add to that the scholarships and the bowl bans, etc. It was just a PR stunt by the NCAA. If they were serious about the issue, it should have been ejection from the association. But Penn State with all it's history makes the association too much money. They just had to do something for PR, so they threw some random penalties their way. There is a reason Penn State jumped right on accepting them, because they know they could have, possibly should have been kicked out of the NCAA. Now they are 'fighting the egregious penalties.' All smoke and mirrors. It's a clown show to keep the public thinking that the penalties really mean something. In 10 years, all the penalties would have been long since over and they would return to being the shitty 10-win team they were before this happened.


Buckeyeskickbuttocks said:
To add to what Mike said in reply, I think Tampa is right regarding what punishments are designed for, but ... and this was 20 plus years ago in a sociology class I took at Ohio State... studies have demonstrated that the threat of punishment does not play much of a factor in the commission of crimes. Most bad guys don't believe they're going to get caught, so it's no deterrent. Most good guys don't do the crime because ... well.. they're good guys.

Mike makes a distinction that is vital to understand, and it's not that overwhelming when you see it. The people who committed crimes surrounding the Sandusky rapes are indeed either dead (You lucky fuck, may you burn in hell) or in prison or set to go to trial. But, the institution which allowed these people to operate must be punished as well. It's no different than Ohio State being punished because Jim Tressel lied to the NCAA about his players being eligible by signing that document. It's no different than USC being punished for the acts of Pete Carroll. And, it really can't be any other way. People always default to "You're hurting the players, they had nothing to do with this" and I don't know what to tell ya. You're right, but as was discussed earlier in this thread, there is always going to be collateral damage in any punishment situation. You can't gut enforcement because of it, though. To not do so would lead to complete anarchy... Imagine cheating as rampant as the SEC. Image the NCAA looking the ot... OK.. bad example. :wink:
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I have no problem with punishing those that had nothing to do with it. In college football, that is the ONLY way to do it, because by the time the dust has settled most parties involved have moved on. There really is no other way to punish those involved, as the NCAA can't punish people after they have moved on to the NFL. Tressel can run and hide in the NFL, the players can run to the NFL. They can punish them while they are still in college, but if they don't have much more time in college, then you can't. So you have to punish the institution. The difference here is the federal government CAN and WILL punish those involved. The president of the university can't run off the the NFL and hide. He's going to prison. That's why the federal government doesn't punish those that had nothing to do with it. They don't have to. Everyone who knew anything about it and kept it a secret, is going to prison. So why do those that didn't know about it and all of the fans have to be punished? In the Ohio State case, you have to punish the institution and the fans, because they didn't have a way to punish the players and Tressel, same with USC, UNC, Miami, etc. Punishing the institution was done because that is the only way to punish anyone. If they didn't do that, then yes it would be anarchy, and every conference would be like the SEC. In the Penn State case, again, everyone involved is being indited. Punishing the institution was only done as a PR move, because they thought they had to, not because it was necessary.
 
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TampaBuckeyes said:
60 Million dollars seems like a lot to the average Joe (punn intended), but to Penn State, it's about 3% of their endowment.
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3% of an endowment is not a trivial figure. It wasn't enough in my opinion... but it's not trivial. Frankly, they should have shut down the entire football program for a few years and completely cleaned house. The deciding factor for when they should have let them play football again, in my mind, is when there were no more poeple bitching about 409. That would have been the signal that the house had been completely cleaned.

Fandom created a situation where the powers that were could make decisions that put football over the welfare of children. Fandom enabled the situation. Fandom was the root of the cause. Until that culture changes, the job is not done.

/story
 
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TampaBuckeyes said:
I have never (and I doubt will ever) read the BWI forums. I actually had to look that up to see what it was, at first I was wondering why you were talking about an airport haha. These are my opinions. Not disagreeing with what you're saying, but expanding on it: If they wanted a clean slate, then they should have disassociated the university. That would have been significant. 60 Million dollars seems like a lot to the average Joe (punn intended), but to Penn State, it's about 3% of their endowment. I guarantee they lost a lot more than 60 million in the collapse of 2008. Yes, it's a lot of money, but it's not that significant of money. And I know they wrote articles saying that they might have to take out a loan to pay it off, yada yada yada. That's just to add to the PR 'it hurts so much story.' Add to that the scholarships and the bowl bans, etc. It was just a PR stunt by the NCAA. If they were serious about the issue, it should have been ejection from the association. But Penn State with all it's history makes the association too much money. They just had to do something for PR, so they threw some random penalties their way. There is a reason Penn State jumped right on accepting them, because they know they could have, possibly should have been kicked out of the NCAA. Now they are 'fighting the egregious penalties.' All smoke and mirrors. It's a clown show to keep the public thinking that the penalties really mean something. In 10 years, all the penalties would have been long since over and they would return to being the [Mark May]ty 10-win team they were before this happened.




I have no problem with punishing those that had nothing to do with it. In college football, that is the ONLY way to do it, because by the time the dust has settled most parties involved have moved on. There really is no other way to punish those involved, as the NCAA can't punish people after they have moved on to the NFL. Tressel can run and hide in the NFL, the players can run to the NFL. They can punish them while they are still in college, but if they don't have much more time in college, then you can't. So you have to punish the institution. The difference here is the federal government CAN and WILL punish those involved. The president of the university can't run off the the NFL and hide. He's going to prison. That's why the federal government doesn't punish those that had nothing to do with it. They don't have to. Everyone who knew anything about it and kept it a secret, is going to prison. So why do those that didn't know about it and all of the fans have to be punished? In the Ohio State case, you have to punish the institution and the fans, because they didn't have a way to punish the players and Tressel, same with USC, UNC, Miami, etc. Punishing the institution was done because that is the only way to punish anyone. If they didn't do that, then yes it would be anarchy, and every conference would be like the SEC. In the Penn State case, again, everyone involved is being indited. Punishing the institution was only done as a PR move, because they thought they had to, not because it was necessary.
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gator???
 
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sparcboxbuck said:
3% of an endowment is not a trivial figure. It wasn't enough in my opinion... but it's not trivial. Frankly, they should have shut down the entire football program for a few years and completely cleaned house. The deciding factor for when they should have let them play football again, in my mind, is when there were no more poeple bitching about 409. That would have been the signal that the house had been completely cleaned.

Fandom created a situation where the powers that were could make decisions that put football over the welfare of children. Fandom enabled the situation. Fandom was the root of the cause. Until that culture changes, the job is not done.

/story
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I guess you could say Fandom enabled the situation, and the only reason you could say that is because the fans for the most part went into defensive mode, and seemed to care more about saving the football program than worrying about the kids. If that happened in Columbus, I wouldn't be able to stomach watching Ohio State anything, and would no longer be able to support the school in any way. From the news it appeared as though the Penn State fans just wanted to save the program. Disguisting. That's why I like these debates, as I don't think I could have thought of that on my own. I just lost what little respect I had for Penn State fans.
 
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Enough of this happy horse crap about the loyal fans please.
  • Paterno was no more legend than Woody Hayes.
  • An old man slugging a taunting player who is wearing a helmet in pads also does not begin to compare to a man ignoring the sexual abuse of children.
  • Penn State fans are no more loyal than Ohio State fans.
  • When Woody and Tressel were fired, Ohio State fans did not perform with cardboard cutouts and pretend they had done nothing.
  • Penn State is being punished because of the corrupt culture, which included the University administration and fans, and the unspeakable crimes they pretended did not exist. If the players don't like it, they can go somewhere else.
 
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TampaBuckeyes said:
There is a reason Penn State jumped right on accepting them, because they know they could have, possibly should have been kicked out of the NCAA. Now they are 'fighting the egregious penalties.' All smoke and mirrors. It's a clown show to keep the public thinking that the penalties really mean something. In 10 years, all the penalties would have been long since over and they would return to being the [Mark May]ty 10-win team they were before this happened.
Click to expand...

The reason they (PSU admin) accepted so quickly and issued the "move on" mantra is that they know the extent of things went much deeper. If someone had the time to dig into what took place, for how long and who really knew, it would have resulted in a complete shutdown.
 
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Delaware Buck said:
The reason they (PSU admin) accepted so quickly and issued the "move on" mantra is that they know the extent of things went much deeper. If someone had the time to dig into what took place, for how long and who really knew, it would have resulted in a complete shutdown.
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Yeah, it's kinda ridiculous how many folks overlook or ignore the fact that PSU hired Freeh to investigate, turned over his findings to the NCAA, then signed off on the penalties to avoid having the NCAA take a closer look.
 
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Delaware Buck said:
The reason they (PSU admin) accepted so quickly and issued the "move on" mantra is that they know the extent of things went much deeper. If someone had the time to dig into what took place, for how long and who really knew, it would have resulted in a complete shutdown.
Click to expand...

Exactly! If JoePed forced out university vice-presidents because they sought to treat football players the same as normal students, if JoePed had retired football coaches (with no education beyond a phys ed degree) put up for Dean positions as retirement gifts, if JoePed exempted the entire athletic department from complying with federal law, if JoePed ran an athletic department that didn't even have a compliance department, if JoePed.............

Those are the things we actually know went on. One can only imagine the things that went on that we don't know about.
 
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Steve19 said:
Enough of this happy horse crap about the loyal fans please.
  • Paterno was no more legend than Woody Hayes.
  • An old man slugging a taunting player who is wearing a helmet in pads also does not begin to compare to a man ignoring the sexual abuse of children.
  • Penn State fans are no more loyal than Ohio State fans.
  • When Woody and Tressel were fired, Ohio State fans did not perform with cardboard cutouts and pretend they had done nothing.
  • Penn State is being punished because of the corrupt culture, which included the University administration and fans, and the unspeakable crimes they pretended did not exist. If the players don't like it, they can go somewhere else.
Click to expand...

is pretty awesome.
 
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Steve19 said:
Enough of this happy horse crap about the loyal fans please.
  • Paterno was no more legend than Woody Hayes.
  • An old man slugging a taunting player who is wearing a helmet in pads also does not begin to compare to a man ignoring the sexual abuse of children.
  • Penn State fans are no more loyal than Ohio State fans.
  • When Woody and Tressel were fired, Ohio State fans did not perform with cardboard cutouts and pretend they had done nothing.
  • Penn State is being punished because of the corrupt culture, which included the University administration and fans, and the unspeakable crimes they pretended did not exist. If the players don't like it, they can go somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Here's the problem that PedStaters have...they still think Joe Pa is in the land of the living.

As an old, country doctor would say:

 
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