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Penn State Cult (Joe Knew)

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Fremont Buckeye said:
I am fine with the scholarships being reinstated.

I thought the penalty on the kids now was wrong. Penn State needed to be punished but the NCAA IMO overstepped its bounds. The Jerry Sandusky issue was a criminal one and the NCAA has no jurisdiction in criminal cases. The Freeh report, just like the NCAA, had no subpoena power and didn’t interview key people involved. I am not saying the Freeh report is wrong, in fact I believe it to be pretty accurate but it does make some assumptions where interviewing the key parties could have tied up any loose assumptions in that particular report.

Jerry Sandusky is in prison, rightfully so, JoePa lost his job, rightfully so, and other key people are currently awaiting their turns in the justice system. A culture change was needed and the NCAA stated so. Punishing kids that had nothing to do with what went on seems wrong, regardless of which university it is. Punish the university itself. Reduce scholarships so that is doesn’t cripple the football program. Have the NCAA remove people involved with the program and start fresh with NCAA approved hires to get rid of the previous culture. Punish the university financially, with no bowl payouts, BCS revenue, TV revenue, fine, etc…
I don’t get the fascination with BWI either, other than for entertainment purposes. At least to me I could care less what another fan base thinks. I mean fan is short for fanatic. Yes Ped Aggy’s fan base is probably the worst I have come across personally and are akin to a cult, but their fan base should not be taken into consideration when applying a NCAA penalty to a university.

Bottom line is I don’t think the kids who had nothing to do with the incidents should be punished if the proper steps to creating a stable university are put into place by the NCAA and are implemented properly. I am sure to catch some fire on this but I really don’t care.

I am fine if you think the NCAA didn't go far enough, that is your opinion.
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Your reasoning seems to be inconsistent. How in the hell is taking scholarships away from Penn State punishing "the kids now?" How in the hell can you say that in one breath, and in the next talk about how a bowl ban is fine because it punishes the institution (and presumably not the "kids now")? In my opinion, you'd be better off arguing return the possibility of going to a bowl, but keep the scholarship reductions.
 
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OSUK said:
Not defending them at all. I can't stand them. But fairness, justice, punishing the guilty, and principles like that do not depend on the name of the university.

The guilty have been punished. Sandusky is rotting jail. Paterno was terminated. Two PSU officials are being prosecuted. All that satifies my sense of justice. What was done to the Penn State football program does not punish the guilty. So what is it that you are supporting? Punishing the innocent because you don't like their football program?
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Lack.
of.
Institutional.
Control.

Punishing the innocent... are you kidding me? Why is it OK that Zach Boren didn't get to go bowling because 5 guys traded trinkets for tats?

Pick an NCAA action.. any one... they ALL necessarily affect the 'innocent' I don't know what to say, son, but life aint fair. To punish Penn State for allowing a goddamned FOOTBALL coach to run the goddamned university... well.. that's EXACTLY what the NCAA is supposed to do.

Punish the innocent... so.. what the fuck, is the NCAA enforcement body supposed to do? NOTHING? Cause the way I'm reading you, that's GOT to be your answer.
 
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OSUK said:
Exactly - except you are ignoring the potential group of players that would be there if it were not for the sanctions.
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How about all the kids they landed from 1998-2011 that were sold on the lie of success with honor? Or the negative recruiting they did during the same period full well knowing that they were hiding a bombshell that would have caused many of those kids to go elsewhere? Again you cannot just compartmentalize the outcome of the sanctions and not consider the benefit obtained from the lies.
 
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OSUK said:
Exactly - except you are ignoring the potential group of players that would be there if it were not for the sanctions.
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Who is being punished by that? Penn State.....exactly who should be. The kids who aren't going there aren't being punished (actually....they're being saved from making a terrible decision of choosing Penn State).
 
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OSUK said:
They are being punished because 1) some very talented players will not even entertain going there due to the sanctions (ie, Noah Spence) 2) overall they will only attract a lower level of recruits (Hack and Brennamen aside) 3) they are playing on a team lacking depth via missing 15 players 4) they will lose games due to diminished talent and depth which further hurts their coach's efforts to get them help. 5) there is no post-season.

Your question is totally absurd. A better question is how doesn't it hurt them.
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Here's an analogy: A guy rapes a boy, and several years later gets married and has several kids. The rape victim eventually comes forward with enough evidence to convict the guy. With your logic, the rapist should not get jail time because it would hurt people not involved (the rapist's new family).
 
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OSUK said:
They are being punished because 1) some very talented players will not even entertain going there due to the sanctions (ie, Noah Spence) 2) overall they will only attract a lower level of recruits (Hack and Brennamen aside) 3) they are playing on a team lacking depth via missing 15 players 4) they will lose games due to diminished talent and depth which further hurts their coach's efforts to get them help. 5) there is no post-season.

Your question is totally absurd. A better question is how doesn't it hurt them.
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No, every last player on that team is making a choice. If playing for a strong team and going to a bowl game is and option and a desire every last one of them had the option of transfering with no penalty. If they made the choice to remain then they understood the ramifications of that choice. That is not a punishment. If a player commits to them now they understand what they are getting into in advance. They are making a choice and will live with the ramifications of that choice.
 
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MililaniBuckeye said:
Here's an analogy: A guy rapes a boy, and several years later gets married and has several kids. The rape victim eventually comes forward with enough evidence to convict the guy. With your logic, the rapist should not get jail time because it would hurt people not involved (the rapist's new family).
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Exactly...

To argue this "punish the innocent" angle strike me as incredibly naive
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks said:
Lack.
of.
Institutional.
Control.

Punishing the innocent... are you kidding me? Why is it OK that Justin Boren didn't get to go bowling because 5 guys traded trinkets for tats?

Pick an NCAA action.. any one... they ALL necessarily affect the 'innocent' I don't know what to say, son, but life aint fair. To punish Penn State for allowing a goddamned FOOTBALL coach to run the goddamned university... well.. that's EXACTLY what the NCAA is supposed to do.

Punish the innocent... so.. what the fuck, is the NCAA enforcement body supposed to do? NOTHING? Cause the way I'm reading you, that's GOT to be your answer.
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I hear you. I guess I would say that I am taking a wider view, based on general principles, and you are taking a more narrow view.

In response to your specific question, if there is lack of "institutional" control then punish those within the INSTITUTION that did not control. In this case Sandusky, Paterno, Curly and Schultz have been held accountable. What sense does it make to levy sanctions against football players and a coaching staff who did not aid Sandusky or assist in a cover up?

IOW, I don't think any football players who are not directly involved with a scandal should be punished because of what their coach, another player, or some other program/administrator did or did not do. The NCAA should punish those who do wrong, not those who are associated with those who did wrong. It's not that hard of a concept. Just because the NCAA has screwed OSU in that way, does not mean that I can support them doing to others.
 
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OSUK said:
Not defending them at all. I can't stand them. But fairness, justice, punishing the guilty, and principles like that do not depend on the name of the university.

The guilty have been punished. Sandusky is rotting jail. Paterno was terminated. Two PSU officials are being prosecuted. All that satifies my sense of justice. What was done to the Penn State football program does not punish the guilty. So what is it that you are supporting? Punishing the innocent because you don't like their football program?
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The Penn State football program WAS one of the guilty. It--and the cult of personality around which it was built--corrupted an entire university. Vice Presidents were fired for attempting to discipline football players, Clery Act regulations were ignored and child rape was concealed and covered up all to protect that program.

Nobody held a gun to O'Brian's head and made him take that job. Nobody held a gun to the players heads to keep them from transferring or new recruits from signing on, so spare me this poor, innocent coaches and players bullshit. A strong message needs to be sent that a football program should never be allowed again to utterly corrupt the mission of a university. The only sad part about all of this is that it wasn't completely shut down for five years. That is apparently the only true way that the Penn State community could have learned a lesson.
 
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OSUK said:
I hear you. I guess I would say that I am taking a wider view, based on general principles, and you are taking a more narrow view.

In response to your specific question, if there is lack of "institutional" control then punish those within the INSTITUTION that did not control. In this case Sandusky, Paterno, Curly and Schultz have been held accountable. What sense does it make to levy sanctions against football players and a coaching staff who did not aid Sandusky or assist in a cover up?

IOW, I don't think any football players who are not directly involved with a scandal should be punished because of what their coach, another player, or some other program/administrator did or did not do. The NCAA should punish those who do wrong, not those who are associated with those who did wrong. It's not that hard of a concept. Just because the NCAA has screwed OSU in that way, does not mean that I can support them doing to others.
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But, the University DID do wrong. It allowed a football coach to run the whole show. By taking away scholarships (players, depth) and getting rid of bowls, they are punishing the university for its transgressions. Much like the analogy Mili came up with (better than my crack deal one) it's just a fucking fact that some "innocents" are also going to be affected. It's not a narrow view I'm taking. It's the view that if college football is going to have any control at all, it needs a body to enforce its rules. You're essentially arguing that said enforcement body should have no power to do so. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Were the sanctions severe? Yes. Should they have been? You goddamned bet your ass. The football coach ran the University for fucks sake!
 
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I mean... I'm not the biggest advocate of the whole "student athlete" romantic idea bandied about. I don't get much into academic smack talk. I freely admit that I could give a rats ass how Braxton Miller is doing in the class room. I just want the guy to score some fucking touchdowns.

But.. that said.. and as I mentioned on some other thread recently... we ARE talking about COLLEGE football... and the fact of the matter is.. these players ARE college STUDENTS. That is the "reason" they are there. Football.. and don't get me wrong, I love college football and I'd much rather talk about the Buckeyes success on the field, their history on the field and so on, than to sit around debating if OSU is a top school or not (it is). ... but.. football is a GAME played by these students. Penn State University exists to educate. Not go to bowl games. (And, yes, so does Ohio State.) But, under Pedterno... they lost their way. And worst of all, they covered up ass raping boys in the process.

To spare a fucking football program...
 
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ORD_Buckeye said:
The Penn State football program WAS one of the guilty. It--and the cult of personality around which it was built--corrupted an entire university. Vice Presidents were fired for attempting to discipline football players, Clery Act regulations were ignored and child rape was concealed and covered up all to protect that program.

Nobody held a gun to O'Brian's head and made him take that job. Nobody held a gun to the players heads to keep them from transferring or new recruits from signing on, so spare me this poor, innocent coaches and players bull[Mark May]. A strong message needs to be sent that a football program should never be allowed again to utterly corrupt the mission of a university. The only sad part about all of this is that it wasn't completely shut down for five years. That is apparently the only true way that the Penn State community could have learned a lesson.
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Yeah, I had my own response ready, but this will save me the typing. Everybody there is by choice. They all had other options and chose to go to that clown college.
 
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