Notre Dame (football only discussion)

[buckeyeboy]

If I were a UCLA fan, I would have some serious questions for the head coach. How in the world can you devise a game plan whereby your team (a) displays a total lack of ability to move the ball against a terrible ND defense and (b) cannot stop ND from going 80 yards in 70 seconds with no timeouts? That's just horrible, horrible coaching IMO.

 

[Best Buckeye]

Note to everybody mentioning Quinn and Heisman in the same sentence.

Quinn is only 35th in the nation in passing efficiency. He only gets 7.0 yards per passing attempt. Only two QB's in the top-60 get less than 7 yards per attempt.

And please voters, don't forget all of his bad plays that resulted in TDs for the defense.

You are right in what you say. What I said may have left the impression that Quinn's Heisman chances are stronger than what they really are. The point was that they are pretty good players on a pretty good team.
The voters probably will forget all the bad plays. They look at the best plays just as they look at Troy's best plays. And just as the media wants a ND "darling" to win the Heisman. When a TV system has a contract with a college we can take it to the bank that they are pushing anyone and everyone who will listen to upgrade "their" candidate.
Just sayin....

 

[buckeyeboy]

They could beat USC and give Quinn the Heisman.

No way do they beat USC in LA. If USC has one strength this year, it's on the defensive side of the ball. Expect ND to be as stymied as it was against scUM's defense.

 

[NOTREDAMECHIEF]

Exactly...I think some people are laying it on a little thick here.

Quinn brought them back to beat a 4-3 team with their backup QB at home...congrats. I don't see the 2002 comparisons really, because we may not have scored a whole lot of points, but our team rarely got pushed around like this ND team has, especially on defense but also on offense like yesterday, during significant stretches. We had a very conservative offensive gameplan most weeks in 2002, and didn't score a lot. ND likes to consider themselves as having the offensive genious of college football...when you don't score much then, it's not the same thing.

It is really not that hard to figure out...


ND's o-line sucks.

 

[ulukinatme]

He had a point...20 carries for 43 yards and a bunch of sacks doesn't exactly point to a strong O-line. Brady Quinn may not be a leading Heisman canidate, but he can hit an open receiver like any other quarterback when he has the time to work. When UCLA went to the prevent defense on the last drive, Quinn had more time and the offense put together the 80 yard drive in under a minute. If UCLA's defense was still putting decent pressure on Quinn and manhandling the O-line, no way does the drive happen.

The Heisman is basically a team and popularity award, that goes either to the guy who puts up good numbers on a team that wins a lot of games, or to a guy who puts up insane numbers on a team that wins some games

I think you need to change your definition then, cause Quinn doesn't have insane numbers but his stats have been good, and despite eeking out their wins, the team is still winning =)

 

[Jaxbuck]

He had a point...20 carries for 43 yards and a bunch of sacks doesn't exactly point to a strong O-line. Brady Quinn may not be a leading Heisman canidate, but he can hit an open receiver like any other quarterback when he has the time to work. When UCLA went to the prevent defense on the last drive, Quinn had more time and the offense put together the 80 yard drive in under a minute. If UCLA's defense was still putting decent pressure on Quinn and manhandling the O-line, no way does the drive happen.

Exactly. If John L Smith isn't JLS and the UCLA coach didn't do such a good JLS impersonation, the domers are looking at 3 losses with USC still to come. Instead they are probably a BCS lock now.

Bad news for them is they are probably going to have to play someone really good in a BCS Bowl game. Only 2 trips ND has taken BCS Bowling they were exposed 41-9 by Oregon State and 34-20 by TOSU. Teams like Texas, Clemson, the SEC champ or the OSU/UM loser will all be waiting to show the country once again how far from elite ND really is.

 

[ulukinatme]

Thats ok, if the luck of the Irish keeps getting us to BCS games, then we're bound to get lucky at least once in the next century and win one Practice makes perfect and all that. Look at Fiesta Bowl wins, they're now automatic for OSU at this point, are they not? :)

 

[Jaxbuck]

In all seriousness, when as a ND fan do you start to wonder about getting into Bowls games based on a contract instead of merit?

Is the money worth the prime time national TV audience thrashing?

I understand the exposure is good to a degree but not when the announcers keep bringing up ND's bowl game losing streak while the teams getting the shit kicked out of them for 3 hours.

I know for me, when OSU is down I'd rather go to a less prestigious Bowl we have a shot at winning than get a big game based on our name and get smoked.

 

[ulukinatme]

It just comes with the position I think. Notre Dame has the contract with NBC, as a result they get a lot of televised games that are broadcast to all parts of the country and not just in the Michiana area. They're on TV a lot, but as a result this also draws more criticism from opponents, analysts, and even fans.
Being independent as they have been, it also gives the team a different kind of dynamic. They essentially choose their own schedule, and they will play teams that are perenial tough opponents like Michigan, USC, or pick up a team like Tennessee for a few years. Of course they have their traditonal patsy games like Navy, and sometimes all 3 military academies when we're lucky like this year. Being independent has its advantages though, theres no conference championship at the end of the year, so you don't worry about an upset. I also think by not being part of a conference, they're a prime canidate for an "At Large" spot. For instance, I believe Oregon had a similar record as ND last season, but ND wound up with the Fiesta spot. My take on that is that USC was already representing the PAC 10 in the BCS, and ND vs. OSU brought in more ratings than OSU vs. Oregon would ever have anyway.
Anyway, from a personal perspective I think thats why ND gets the edge on other teams when it comes to bowl games, it does come down to the exposure, who you are and who you play. With ND, they may be down, but theres always a chance for an upset. I'd rather take a chance on an upset in a BCS game rather than a win in a lesser bowl. For many fans, the other bowls don't matter, theres a certain expectation level of the team. Currently, the team still isn't meeting those expectations, but lately they've been coming closer to meeting them. Improvement is better than decline, and the last year and a half has been the most improvement this team has shown since '93 in my recollection.
In any event, ND vs. anyone is going to draw more viewers and $ than other opponents in a bowl game, until that changes they'll probably still edge out the competition for the At Large spots.

 

[Bucklion]

He had a point...20 carries for 43 yards and a bunch of sacks doesn't exactly point to a strong O-line. Brady Quinn may not be a leading Heisman canidate, but he can hit an open receiver like any other quarterback when he has the time to work. When UCLA went to the prevent defense on the last drive, Quinn had more time and the offense put together the 80 yard drive in under a minute. If UCLA's defense was still putting decent pressure on Quinn and manhandling the O-line, no way does the drive happen.

I think you need to change your definition then, cause Quinn doesn't have insane numbers but his stats have been good, and despite eeking out their wins, the team is still winning =)

And it's ND, so he's bound to get 1000x more pub and media love than he deserves by default...

As for the OL...uh, yeah, I think it's obvious ND's OL isn't all that great, but that doesn't mean all the skill guys are magiacally the best in all of football and just being held back by a bad OL. Walker hasn't been all that great either rushing or receiving, and Quinn has been erratic during significant stretches this year. Yes, ND keeps eeking out wins against decent to below average competition, yee-hah. A game-winning drive against a team that pushed you around most of the game and will be lucky to finish 6-6 isn't really all that impressive, no matter what the OL is or isn't. Troy Smith and Brady Quinn this year...not even close, but the media and the voters will make it closer than it should be.

 

[bucknut11]

SI



"They were home eating cheeseburgers and they end up jumping us. That befuddles me." __________ insert comment here

Weis questions Notre Dame's ranking


SOUTH BEND, Ind. (AP) -- Charlie Weis isn't sure Notre Dame is a top-10 caliber team.

He's convinced, though, the 11th-ranked Fighting Irish didn't deserve to be jumped in the polls and the Bowl Championship Series standings after a last-minute win over UCLA.

"One of the teams (Tennessee) that jumped us had the same game that we had. They're down, they're playing at home and they win by a field goal," Weis said Tuesday. "Another team (Florida) that jumped us wasn't even playing. They were home eating cheeseburgers and they end up jumping us. That befuddles me."

Clemson jumped ahead of Notre Dame in The Associated Press poll with a 31-7 victory over Georgia Tech, a team the Irish struggled to beat 14-10 in the season opener. The Irish dropped two spots to No. 10 in the coaches poll after Florida, which had a bye, and Tennessee, which came back from seven points down to beat Alabama 16-13 with a touchdown with 3:28 left, moved ahead of the Irish.

Texas, which needed a 22-yard field goal to beat Nebraska 22-20 with 23 seconds left, passed the Irish in the Bowl Championship Series standings, dropping the Irish to No. 9.

"Tell me how that works?" Weis said. "Maybe I'm just stupid. Tell me how that works?"

It was the second time this season the Irish dropped in the polls following a win. After beating Georgia Tech, they fell from No. 2 to No 4 in the AP and from third to fifth in the coaches poll. They also fell from No. 8 to No. 9 in the AP poll on their off week two weeks ago.

Weis, though, said the biggest concern for the Irish isn't the polls. He said they simply need to keep winning. They can clinch a spot in a BCS bowl -- and the $4.5 million that comes with it -- by finishing eighth or better in the final standings.

They still have an outside shot of making it to the national championship game -- but Weis admits they would need a lot of luck and help, especially with their next four games coming against the three military academies and North Carolina (1-6) before closing the regular season at USC.

"Let's be very practical here. Would I love for Notre Dame to play for the national championship this year? Absolutely," he said. "Is it a chance that it happens? Yeah, there's a chance. Because any team with one loss has a chance of playing for it."

But no team in recent memory has been beaten like the Irish were in their 47-21 loss to Michigan has come back and won a championship. The Irish not only have a bad loss, they have two near misses in come-from-behind victories over Michigan State and UCLA. The offensive line has struggled repeatedly and the defense has given up many big plays.

Should the Irish be ranked in the top 10?

"I think we'll know that in about five weeks," he said. "We might be a top 5 team in five weeks," he said. "But ask me that at the end of November. Because right now I couldn't answer that question."

 

[osugrad21]

SB Tribune

Notre Dame's offensive woes have left voters in Associated Press unimpressed.

COLLEGE

ERIC HANSEN
Tribune Staff Writer

SOUTH BEND -- It goes deeper than the bruises Brady Quinn can't always hide.

There are the recurring headaches for Notre Dame head football coach Charlie Weis. Trying to fix it. Trying to frame it. Trying to somehow reinvent, replicate the offense that stormed the college football world last season.

But perhaps the most painful indictment of the regression of the Irish offensive line is that it's starting to show up in the polls.

"You go all the way back to the Georgia Tech game, the opener," said Stewart Mandel of SI.com and one of 11 Associated Press poll voters who ranked the Irish 13th or lower this week. "When the offensive line struggled against Georgia Tech, I thought it was an aberration.

"But then they couldn't handle Michigan -- and nobody has; the kid at Purdue (defensive end Anthony Spencer) has an obscene game And then there's the UCLA game (QB Quinn was sacked five times and hurried on nine other occasions). The coaches probably say they're getting better, they see progress. But it's hard to see that from the outside."

And so the Irish (6-1) slipped two spots in the coaches poll (No. 8 to No. 10) after one of the more stirring and dramatic finishes in Notre Dame history in a 20-17 victory over UCLA, Saturday. They fell one spot in the AP poll (10 to 11) and one in the Bowl Championship Series standings (8 to 9).

"I think we'll know in about five weeks," Weis said when asked if he thought his team was worthy of a top 10 ranking. "We might be a top five team in five weeks. If you're basing it off one game, I'd say our defense played a top 10 game and our offense didn't in the last game. So ask me at the end of November."

Weis, wasn't quite so measured, though, about his displeasure over the Irish slipping, citing the jump Florida and Tennessee made in the coaches poll -- without actually naming those teams.

"One of the teams that jumps us has the same game we did," Weis said, referring to Tennessee's 16-13 rally past Alabama. "They're down. They're playing at home, and they win by a field goal. Another team that jumped us (Florida) wasn't even playing. They're sitting at home eating cheeseburgers.

"Tell me how it works. Maybe I'm just stupid."

Actually, beyond Notre Dame's leaky offensive line play, several AP voters cited Clemson's 31-7 rout of Georgia Tech as a reason to jump the one-loss Tigers over the one-loss Irish. ND beat the Yellow Jackets, 14-10, in Atlanta on Sept. 2.

"Clemson took some luster off Notre Dame's win at Georgia Tech," said Jon Wilner of the San Jose Mercury News, who had the Irish No. 1 in his preseason poll but has them No. 14 this week.

"I do have trouble evaluating them. They're one of the hardest teams to evaluate in terms of a ranking, because without playing in a conference, you have a hard time gauging the quality of their opponents."

In the AP poll, the only major poll that makes the individual ballots public at this stage of the season, the Irish were ranked as high as sixth and as low as 15th this week (and every position in between by at least one of the 65 AP voters).

The No. 10 spot was their most popular placement (16 votes). There was no real evidence of regional bias either way. Joe Giglio of the Raleigh (N.C.) News & Observer was one of two voters who had the Irish 15th this week (ESPN's Craig James the other), but in the very same city, Jeff Gravley of WRAL-TV had the Irish ninth. In Indiana, one voter (Steve Warden of the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette) had the Irish sixth, another (Michael Pointer of the Indianapolis Star) 12th.

"I think the hard part for Notre Dame is that they may not have a chance to impress the voters again until USC (Nov. 25)," said the Charlotte Observer's Ken Tysiac, who cited offensive line play for his No. 14 vote of the Irish this week.

Notre Dame plays Navy, North Carolina, Air Force and Army in the interim.

"They need the teams they have already beaten to win," said Giglio, another voter who had ND No. 1 in his preseason poll but has cooled on them in part because of the inconsistent play in the trenches. "Their only real chance is to impress the computers."

Jimmy Burch of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram is one of the human voters who has been impressed by the Irish. He had Notre Dame eighth on his latest ballot.

"They're pretty clutch," he said. "When it's time in the fourth quarter for somebody to step up, they step up more than anybody else. But there aren't any great teams this year. I think the two teams that played for the national championship (Texas and USC) last year as well as last year's Ohio State team would beat the (snot) out of whoever wins this year's national championship.

"I think that's why it's so hard for people to separate the teams. I'm even having a few second thoughts about not jumping Clemson over some people this week, but Clemson lost to Boston College. I mean other than Ohio State and the people who are undefeated, everybody's got a hickey."

 

[jwinslow]

I really wish the reporters would have done their homework before this presser... though perhaps they would lose their press pass if anyone dared to challenge the cheeseburger expert.

Why didn't they ask about this?

ND nation seems to have very short memories. Just last year, ND benefitted from a very similar scenario.

In week 6, a 4-1 ND (ranked #12 AP) had a bye week after beating Purdue. LSU, sitting at #11 with a 2-1 record (behind due to the Hurricane Katrina disaster) beat Vanderbilt by 28 points to improve to 3-1 on the season. The resulting week 7 poll?

ND #9
LSU #10

Soooo, ND has a bye week while LSU wins by 4 TD's and ND jumps them in the polls.

Where was the outcry from CW on this one? Does anyone remember Les Miles whining to the press about ND sitting at home eating cheeseburgers?

 

[ulukinatme]

Yeah, but what other team gets the shaft when it comes to voting time this year? ND keeps winning week after week since the Michigan game, and despite teams losing ahead of them, they're not going anywhere or slipping. Look at Tennessee for example, they win a close game against a 3 loss Alabama team and move up because they "show grit" or whatever, ND wins a close one against 3 loss UCLA and move down? UT is a better team this year and all, but they almost lost to an Air Force team early in the season. Aside from Georgia Tech, who the heck has Clemson played this season? USC has had close games week after week, against teams like Washington no less. I think USC did slip a spot last week to Michigan, I expect the voters want to see the #1 vs. #2 matchup at the end of the season with OSU and UM.
Anyway, I'm not expecting to still be #2 here or anything, but other 1 loss teams have gotten the benefit of the doubt here and moved back up after teams lose ahead of them. Auburn lost by 17 points to then unranked Arkansas, they're back up to #7 now. Arkansas got destroyed by USC at the beginning of the season by 36 points, they're #13 now and the voters seemed to have forgotten about that loss as they keep winning.

 

[BB73]

Yeah, but what other team gets the shaft when it comes to voting time this year? ND keeps winning week after week since the Michigan game, and despite teams losing ahead of them, they're not going anywhere or slipping. Look at Tennessee for example, they win a close game against a 3 loss Alabama team and move up because they "show grit" or whatever, ND wins a close one against 3 loss UCLA and move down? UT is a better team this year and all, but they almost lost to an Air Force team early in the season. Aside from Georgia Tech, who the heck has Clemson played this season? USC has had close games week after week, against teams like Washington no less. I think USC did slip a spot last week to Michigan, I expect the voters want to see the #1 vs. #2 matchup at the end of the season with OSU and UM.
Anyway, I'm not expecting to still be #2 here or anything, but other 1 loss teams have gotten the benefit of the doubt here and moved back up after teams lose ahead of them. Auburn lost by 17 points to then unranked Arkansas, they're back up to #7 now. Arkansas got destroyed by USC at the beginning of the season by 36 points, they're #13 now and the voters seemed to have forgotten about that loss as they keep winning.

Let's see. Both Arkansas and ND were stomped at home by teams now ranked #2 or #3. Arkansas, meanwhile, has actually beaten a top-10 team on the road, in giving Auburn their only loss. ND had a solid win over Penn State, but they're no longer ranked; and ND's close win over Ga. Tech no longer looks so good, since Clemson just stomped them.

ND is currently 4 spots ahead of Arkansas in the Harris and Coaches Polls, and you're complaining about Arkansas being ranked so high?

How much green Kool-Aid have you been drinking?