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Notre Dame (football only discussion)

ulukinatme;643469; said:
Yeah, but what other team gets the shaft when it comes to voting time this year? ND keeps winning week after week since the Michigan game, and despite teams losing ahead of them, they're not going anywhere or slipping. Look at Tennessee for example, they win a close game against a 3 loss Alabama team and move up because they "show grit" or whatever, ND wins a close one against 3 loss UCLA and move down? UT is a better team this year and all, but they almost lost to an Air Force team early in the season. Aside from Georgia Tech, who the heck has Clemson played this season? USC has had close games week after week, against teams like Washington no less. I think USC did slip a spot last week to Michigan, I expect the voters want to see the #1 vs. #2 matchup at the end of the season with OSU and UM.
Anyway, I'm not expecting to still be #2 here or anything, but other 1 loss teams have gotten the benefit of the doubt here and moved back up after teams lose ahead of them. Auburn lost by 17 points to then unranked Arkansas, they're back up to #7 now. Arkansas got destroyed by USC at the beginning of the season by 36 points, they're #13 now and the voters seemed to have forgotten about that loss as they keep winning.

OK, let's think about that. Your case essentially is based on an argument about beginning of the season rankings and dropping from there.

First, let's remember that it is a proven fact that your team is the most over-rated in the rankings, year in and year out, of any other team. That is an objective fact and preseason rankings are no place from which to start a serious conversation.

Second, in the second part of your argument is that there is an implied bias against Notre Dame. With all due respect, that is about as rich as it gets! See the first paragraph above. :slappy:

However, let's be objective about this. Here's a good site where all of the computer rankings are averaged, so there can be quibbling about the virtues of one computer guy over another. We'll remove that bias from our discussion by averaging 98 computer rankings. We'll also remove the argument of a world out to get Notre Dame. http://www.mratings.com/cf/compare.htm.

What do we observe?
  • Florida's is ranked in a range from #3 to #21 and at the average of #4
  • Clemson's ranks are in a range from #2 to #22 and average at #13.
  • Notre Dame's ranks are in a range from #5 to #30 and average at #14.
So, by whatever measure we use in the computer ratings, best ranking, worst ranking, or the best one, the average ranking: Notre Dame ranks below Florida and Clemson.

And is currently over-rated in the human polls.

How much better is Florida and Clemson? Take a good look at Sagarin's predictor ranking, which is the one that predicts actual winning and winning margins best. Clemson is #5, Florida is #10, and Notre Dame is #30. Clemson is a 13 point favorite, and Florida is a 10 point favorite, over Notre Dame on a neutral field.

Notre Dame is a twenty point underdog to Ohio State on a neutral field, even after Charlie tries to run in every point he can and Tressel instructs his team taking the knee in the red zone at game's end time after time.

Notre Dame did not deserve to be in a BCS bowl last year. They don't deserve to be in a BCS bowl this year. If they get into a decent bowl, they will lose.
 
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ulukinatme;643469; said:
Yeah, but what other team gets the shaft when it comes to voting time this year? ND keeps winning week after week since the Michigan game, and despite teams losing ahead of them, they're not going anywhere or slipping. Look at Tennessee for example, they win a close game against a 3 loss Alabama team and move up because they "show grit" or whatever, ND wins a close one against 3 loss UCLA and move down? UT is a better team this year and all, but they almost lost to an Air Force team early in the season. Aside from Georgia Tech, who the heck has Clemson played this season? USC has had close games week after week, against teams like Washington no less. I think USC did slip a spot last week to Michigan, I expect the voters want to see the #1 vs. #2 matchup at the end of the season with OSU and UM.
Anyway, I'm not expecting to still be #2 here or anything, but other 1 loss teams have gotten the benefit of the doubt here and moved back up after teams lose ahead of them. Auburn lost by 17 points to then unranked Arkansas, they're back up to #7 now. Arkansas got destroyed by USC at the beginning of the season by 36 points, they're #13 now and the voters seemed to have forgotten about that loss as they keep winning.

So of course it was OK last year when you moved up, but a travesty this year when Tennessee moved up. Typical.

Enjoy those upcoming big wins over Army and Navy and Air Force and Coast Guard College and VMI and whoever else...they won't move you up either.
 
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Is this USC vs ND game going to be a media nob-slobbering fest or what? I don't know which one I want to lose more. Hopefully, USC will lose to Oregon or Cal and then can take down the Irish and put an end to all this noise.
 
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JCOSU86;643599; said:
Is this USC vs ND game going to be a media nob-slobbering fest or what? I don't know which one I want to lose more. Hopefully, USC will lose to Oregon or Cal and then can take down the Irish and put an end to all this noise.

There aren't a lot of people mentioning the USC-ND scores from 02-03-04.

'02 - USC 31-point win.
'03 - USC 31-point win.
'04 - USC 31-point win.

That was NOT a recording.
 
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Jaxbuck;641041; said:
Bad news for them is they are probably going to have to play someone really good in a BCS Bowl game. Only 2 trips ND has taken BCS Bowling they were exposed 41-9 by Oregon State and 34-20 by TOSU. Teams like Texas, Clemson, the SEC champ or the OSU/UM loser will all be waiting to show the country once again how far from elite ND really is.

Oh I agree with that. In fact I think it was Stewart Mandel who said they would get through the rest of their season to USC unscathed, get smoked by USC and then smoked by whomever they face in their BCS bowl. If I thinking of the right person, he said that after the MSU collapse.
 
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Buckeye Maniac;643729; said:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/061025

I'd put the article on here, but I can't figure out how to cut and paste it on a mac...

It's DJ Gallo's rebuttal to Wies' whining about the rankings.
Glad to oblige

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/061025
By DJ Gallo
Special to Page 2



Notre Dame head coach Charlie Weis took time out of his weekly news conference Tuesday to complain about his team dropping in the polls and BCS standings.

While my initial reaction was to simply laugh off Weis' griping, he raised some points and asked a few questions that I felt deserved serious responses.

pg2_w_weis_195.jpg

Matthew Mitchell/WireImage.com
Charlie wasn't a happy camper about the poll results this week.


(The italics are direct quotes pulled from the transcript of Weis' news conference.)

"One of the teams [Tennessee] that jumped us had the same game that we had. They're down, they're playing at home and they win by a field goal. Another team [Florida] that jumped us wasn't even playing. They were at home eating cheeseburgers and they end up jumping us. That befuddles me."

Hey, care to know what befuddles me, Charlie? How the head coach of Notre Dame, a program which has consistently been overrated and ranked higher than it deserved to be for more than a decade -- and for most of the past century -- has the audacity to complain about polls. I mean ? wow! That more than befuddles me.

And do you want to know what else befuddles me? How you were able to dupe Notre Dame into giving you a 10-year contract worth nearly $40 million after starting your career 5-2 without a single win against a team that finished the season ranked in the Top 25. That's a bit befuddling. As is the fact that you are regarded as some sort of football god even though the next good team your Fighting Irish beat will be the first. In your tenure you have played three good teams (so much for the perception that Notre Dame plays a brutal schedule, huh?): USC last October, Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl and Michigan five weeks ago. You were blown out in two of those three games. But, yeah, you almost beat USC. Congratulations. Heck of a moral victory there. That's exactly why you were hired. For moral victories.

Let's see ? what else befuddles me? Oh, yeah: How you claim to hold everything about Notre Dame sacred, yet spend every Saturday afternoon on the sideline dropping F-bombs every other word and cussing out officials, all in the shadow of "Touchdown Jesus" and with a priest standing a few yards away. Sure, that's being a bit picky, I suppose, but I'm #^&*ing befuddled by it nonetheless.

Oh, and you wonder why Tennessee jumped ahead of you? Beside the fact that they're better than you, it might have something to do with the fact that they beat Alabama -- a quality team in the best conference in college football and a longtime rival -- while you slipped past an average team from a bad conference. Just a theory. It might also have something to do with the fact that Tennessee has already beaten three teams this season who are currently ranked (you may recall you have just one such win) and that their only loss was by one point to a very good Florida team while your loss was by 26 -- 26! -- at home to Michigan. So really, if you think about it, the only shock is that you were actually ranked ahead of Tennessee before this week.

And the "home eating cheeseburgers" line? Very clever. But you should probably know that not everyone spends their free time gorging themselves on fast food. It's true. (I know, I know -- this revelation has you "befuddled" yet again.)

Let's continue ?

"We go into a game with 27 seconds to go, come from behind, win a thrilling game, and because we win a thrilling game, let's move us down because one team is not playing and the other team had the exact same game, exactly the same. Tell me how that works. Maybe I'm just stupid. Just tell me how that works. You're [a voter], tell me how that works."

Wow. Great reasoning there, Captain Logic. Yes, you were bumped down a few spots in the polls because you won in a "thrilling" fashion. Yep. That's how the voters decide things. "Hmm ? it seems Notre Dame won a thrilling game. Guess I'll have to drop them down in my rankings because I hate things that are thrilling." But, hey, I'll throw you a bone here, Logic Boy -- you'd be the unanimous No. 1 team in the country if there were a poll ranking the teams that play the most thrilling games. Many Notre Dame games are extremely thrilling because your team makes a habit out of playing down to its awful competition (oops ? there's that easy schedule thing cropping up again).

Do you perhaps instruct your team to play poorly against poor competition to score "thrilling" points and keep the ratings up on NBC so Notre Dame can get another big TV contract so they can afford your overinflated contract? That must be the case, because you are the greatest coach ever. Everyone knows that. And there would be no other explanation as to why you lost to Michigan State last year, and almost again this year. And why you barely slipped by an awful Stanford team last November and a mediocre UCLA squad on Saturday.

pg2_w_weisquinn_275.jpg

Matthew Mitchell/WireImage.com
Weis congratulates Brady Quinn on a big win over a mediocre opponent.


But, sorry, you asked that someone tell you how that works and I ignored your question and went off on a tangent. My apologies. So here's how it works. (I'm not a voter, but I have a notion of how it goes.) Voters watch college football games and then at the end of every weekend rank the teams from best to worst as they see fit. Based on this week's polls, the average voter thinks your team is currently no better than 10th or 11th. Understand how it works? It's really quite simple. And, in all honesty, Notre Dame probably is not even deserving of being that high, but the polls are still adjusting to having your team ranked way too high to start the season -- which is sort of a rankings tradition.

And one more thing, since you asked -- no, you're not stupid. But you know you're not stupid. You just think everyone else is. That's why you are so incredibly condescending when you speak. It's part of your "charm."

But let's continue again. I know you have to put in a game plan for your super-tough game against Navy on Saturday, and I don't want to take up a lot of your time.

"Would I love for Notre Dame to play for the national championship this year? Absolutely. Is there a chance that it happens? Remote. Is there a chance? Yeah, there's a chance because any team with one loss has a chance of playing for it. Now a lot of things have to happen now, OK. A lot of things have to happen. But is there a chance? I'd say there's a chance. It's remote. Would you agree with that? It's remote, but would you say there's a chance?"

Yes, Charlie, I'd say there's a chance. I mean, geez, look at your schedule over the next month: at Navy, home versus North Carolina, at Air Force and home against Army. And maybe if you're lucky, you can even fit Temple in there somewhere on a Wednesday. So you should easily get through your next four games and be 10-1 and right in the thick of the national title hunt, with the voters leaving love letters outside your door again.
But wait ? what's that I see at the end of your Division I-AA-esque stretch of games? Oooh, bummer. A game against USC. And on the road to boot. Too bad. Oh well -- so maybe there's not a chance that you'll play for the national championship this season. Not that you'd want to. Ohio State or Michigan would crush you. And that would be bad for your image.
 
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Tell you what I like about the Gallo article, it's a sign of a rapidly changing media image for Weis. He'll have three losses this year. His offensive genius is being exposed for all to see. He is being outcoached by Tressel, Carroll, Carr...Carr?

He started the year with big expectations, a national championship on the horizon, the Heisman winner at quarterback. He'll finish in not much different circumstances than Ty Willingham at the same point in his career.

Pride goeth before a fall. The whinging about the team not being his guys, the tough schedule, etc. is all being exposed. And this will continue to explode because this man cannot control his ego. He has begun to plead for respect. A couple of good whuppings and this man will be exposed for every high school recruit to see in his full glory.

Thank goodness we have Jim Tressel.
 
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Weis isn't above an option play
(http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/113563,CST-SPT-greg27.article)

October 27, 2006

BY GREG COUCH Sun-Times Columnist
Life as Notre Dame's football coach is a week-to-week existence. You are a hero, you are a god. And then you are pounded by Michigan, and you are doubted.

Maybe it's a minute-by-minute thing. You are losing to UCLA at home, and some guy in the stands angrily yells, ''Come on, Charlie!'' so loud that it comes in perfectly on national TV. And then you come back to win, and you are magic.

That much I know. And then there are things I suspect: Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis has said recently that NFL teams have called to see if he'd consider leaving South Bend and that the Irish aren't being treated fairly in the polls. Maybe those are simple statements, disconnected. But they are suspicious.

Is Weis playing a power game with Notre Dame? Maybe he's feeling pressure from all the outside forces that seem to run America's college football program, and he's trying to send reminders about who's king. About whose team this is. Maybe Weis, who mixes thin skin and thick ego, agreed with all the savior talk but doesn't want to put up with the other stuff Irish coaches face.

Just last year, in his first season at Notre Dame, he was given a new 10-year contract, supposedly to fend off NFL owners. Then, after national championship predictions this year, the Irish looked disorganized and uncoached against Michigan. And Weis suddenly looked human.

Last week, NFL.com reported that ''at least two owners'' had contacted Weis during Notre Dame's off week to see if he could be pulled away. Weis confirmed it but said, ''I'm not going anywhere.''

Hmm. Two owners? How did the reporter find that out? Did two owners just happen to leak that in the same week? Possibly. Incredible coincidences happen.


Planted item?
But it would seem more likely that Weis, whose autobiography was ghost-written by another NFL.com writer, planted that story. Maybe he did it himself; maybe his agent did it.
Planted it, confirmed it, then reconfirmed his love of Notre Dame.

''Everyone knows I'm staying here until they fire me or I die,'' he said last week at his regular news conference. ''I'm here for life. That's what I said I was going to do. So why would I not be a man of my word?''

He also said this about buying out his 10-year contract: ''It would cost me too much money to leave ... millions of dollars. And the last time I checked, I don't have it.''

Last I checked, NFL teams have it. And serious, contending NFL teams rarely are scared off by money. If Bill Parcells leaves Dallas, do you think a little thing like money would keep Jerry Jones from calling Weis?

Some people have wondered why Weis would confirm the story at all. Does it show his desire for the NFL? Is he angling for a raise? Maybe, but I think it's simpler than that. He would plant it -- and it's probably true, no matter who leaked it -- to tell Notre Dame people to get off his back. It's not to say that he wants to leave, but only that he could.

It's to say, ''You signed me to a long-term deal, but I still have options.''

His pledge of allegiance to Notre Dame was the same as a guy telling his wife that women at work keep asking him out, but ''Don't worry, honey, I married you for life, and I'm not going anywhere.'' Would a wife feel comforted by that? And why would the guy say it in the first place?

They still love Weis at Notre Dame, now that time has passed since the Michigan game. But it turns out the love isn't based solely on his magnetic personality. Also, other coaches can match his genius. UCLA has less talent than Notre Dame but almost won anyway. It took a miraculous comeback for the Irish to beat Michigan State, a terrible team with a terrible coach.


Polls bring out the politician
This week, the Irish dropped in the polls after the UCLA comeback -- passed by Clemson in one poll, Tennessee and Florida in another and Texas in the all-important Bowl Championship Series standings.
''One of the teams [Tennessee] that jumped us had the same game we had,'' Weis said. ''They win by a field goal. Another team that jumped us [Florida] wasn't even playing. They're sitting at home eating cheeseburgers. That befuddles me.''

It would help the Irish's cause if they would beat an actual elite team. Last year, they didn't beat one team in the final rankings. In this week's rankings, Notre Dame has beaten only No. 21 Georgia Tech.

Weis is pumping poll voters to help ensure the Irish a BCS bid. Notre Dame is No. 9 in the BCS standings, has four easy games and a tough one, at USC, left. And it needs to stay in the top 14 for a probable BCS game.

That's what Weis needs.

But maybe this season isn't as smooth as it appears. If the Irish beat USC, then Weis will be king. But if they lose the way they did to Michigan?

As Weis said, no matter how many times he tells NFL teams he's staying, darned if they don't keep calling.

''Sometimes they just don't get it,'' he said. ''But I keep on giving the same answer.''

Hmm.

Funny article essentially accusing Weis of fabricating NFL team interest to keep the ND backers and admin off his back.
 
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Alright, I've watched enough of Brady Quinn. He's going to suck in the NFL. This isn't one of those "predictions" people make just because they hate the school the kid plays for. I'm just saying that he will not be very good at all in the NFL. All he does is throw deep balls and have his WRs out jump crappy Navy calibre corners. That doesn't work in the NFL.


And before your dumb ass goes off on Troy Smith, NDChump, I don't think he has the size to play in the NFL either....so save your stupidity.
 
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MililaniBuckeye;646008; said:
They just said that next week's game against Air Force will only be available on CSTV. So much for ND being on national TV every week...

yeah and I'm not getting the game in Springfield right now.

Called my dad in Pataskala. The ND game has been RELEGATED TO THE CW in Columbus.
 
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And before your dumb ass goes off on Troy Smith, NDChump, I don't think he has the size to play in the NFL either....so save your stupidity.
Size isn't everything, I think Troy could excel with his athleticism, its just a matter of which team wants a QB that has the wheels to get out of trouble when he needs to. He could take over for Leinart on the Cardinals, I was sayin' last year that he was gonna be a bust :biggrin: Leinart was fine like any other QB when he has plenty of time and tons of weapons to use. Hes playin' tough teams every week now at the Pro level though. Cardinals are 1-6 and Warner was doing a better job, well, not much better anyway. He was completing more passes at least.

Quinn actually throws more short passes than long ones, you've just been seeing more long passes in the come from behind victories like UCLA and MSU. Screens are a pretty big staple of the offense, along with quick slants. Probably the longest pass play that they use frequently is the TE seam, other than that they'll do some play action passes every now and then.
 
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