t_BuckeyeScott
Hall of Fame
Has anyone mentioned on the USC boards the OSU hate on ESPN? They haven't seen anything yet.
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- Thread starter CleveBucks
- Start date
One thing in USC's defense is this, these agents weren't paying Bush to stay at USC, they were trying to get him to be their client. May not make much a difference to the NCAA. Just sayin.
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;608140; said:
Exactly the way I see it also. There are a couple of things to consider in this as well as Troy Smiths situations. Not comparing the severity of the two.
1. The athlete in question is already playing for the University. Money from the outside party is not being used to get them there or keep them there. University not at fault, the player and agents are.
2. Reggie Bush's abilities would not have been more or less had he not gotten this type of treatment for his family and himself. The games USC won they still would have won. Again blame squarely on the player and agents.
Now the sticky situation is that the player is no longer at said University so if the University gets punished, for things they had no knowledge of or any "control" over, its a bit disappointing. The system is what it is and they will punish the University for indiscretions- see Jim O'brien, Ohio State University. My opinion, a terrible flaw with the system but as I have no good alternative I'll just deal with it like everyone else.
I don't really see any good coming from taking the championship away from USC or the Heisman away from Bush. Who would you give them to? Ugly situation and I'm glad that its not us this time!
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Given the witchhunt that was happening at Ohio State at the time, USC and Pete Carroll have no reason to claim ignorance. Perhaps you indicate that you didn't know about the rent. But, the parents arriving by air to attend a game at Cal and riding in a limosine, given their economic circumstances? Certainly, you know when a kid gets a new car and can verify how it was funded?
No, this one is going to get very ugly. The NCAA cannot not do anything, given what they did to Ohio State for much smaller infractions.
The thing I really detest about this? It probably hurts Troy Smith's chances at getting the Heisman due to the association of his accepting money and Bush's behavior. Don't get me wrong, Troy did that to himself, but he's paid his price for what is essentially a miniscule violation in comparison.
Somewhere in all this, something just doesn't seem fair to me in respect of Ohio State's treatment, whether intended or not.
No, this one is going to get very ugly. The NCAA cannot not do anything, given what they did to Ohio State for much smaller infractions.
The thing I really detest about this? It probably hurts Troy Smith's chances at getting the Heisman due to the association of his accepting money and Bush's behavior. Don't get me wrong, Troy did that to himself, but he's paid his price for what is essentially a miniscule violation in comparison.
Somewhere in all this, something just doesn't seem fair to me in respect of Ohio State's treatment, whether intended or not.
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The issue is extra benefits, not inducement. It may not increase a players ability, but it is the rule.
Folks often talk as though the NCAA is this outside body imposing its will on schools. The schools ARE the NCAA. These are their rules and the NCAA is their organization. The rules are imposed on themselves.
If you allow extra benefits for a player that becomes an inducement to future players.
To be clear, if a non-booster provides such benefits in a fashion that U$C (just had to try out the $ to see how it looked) could reasonably have known nothing about it is not a problem for the school itself. But the player himself can still be ineligible. That does not lead to sanctions, but it does lead to forfeits. If the booster provides the benefits it is treated differently. The school IS expected to educate and control its boosters.
So USC has three potential problems.
1. Bush is declared ineligible and any games after that point are subject to forfeit.
2. The agent who helped Bush find a job (and did so with the knowledge of the school) also provided illegal benefits and is declared a booster because by definition helping with jobs makes you a booster.
3. It is determined that USC should have known. I am reading comments that Bush thought Carrol knew, that an assistant knew, that the school was 'infested' with agents. None of that is good for USC.
All that said, this is just what I am reading. That doesn't make them facts.
Finally, as for punishing the school and not the athlete - that is just the way it is. A school has no leverage over any of its students once they leave school unless they break a real law. These aren't real laws. You must punish the school because if you don't you have no leverage to enforce any sort of rules. Coaches and boosters simply laugh at you and do as they please. That is the way the schools themselves view it because that is the system they put in place.
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Well, it can no longer be said that ESPN is not giving the topic enough coverage. Corso and Herbie both siad that "IF" Bush is found to be ineligible, he should give up the Heisman.
The apparent written documentation showing that Bush's stay in Las Vegas prior to the 2005 season, with the clear understanding that it was being paid for by the agent that authorized it, seems to be the charge that would most jeopardize his eligibility.
Regarding the stuff provided for his parents, it's hard to prove that USC staff, or even Reggie, were aware of it. The suits and other benefits provided for the Heisman ceremony could only be used to declare him ineligible for his last game, which USC lost anyway.
I don't see anything that indicates that USC's 2004 BCS Championship is in danger. Their 2005 Pac-10 title may well be, however.
The bigger danger for USC is the allegation that somebody on the coaching staff was aware of some of Reggie's benefits.
The apparent written documentation showing that Bush's stay in Las Vegas prior to the 2005 season, with the clear understanding that it was being paid for by the agent that authorized it, seems to be the charge that would most jeopardize his eligibility.
Regarding the stuff provided for his parents, it's hard to prove that USC staff, or even Reggie, were aware of it. The suits and other benefits provided for the Heisman ceremony could only be used to declare him ineligible for his last game, which USC lost anyway.
I don't see anything that indicates that USC's 2004 BCS Championship is in danger. Their 2005 Pac-10 title may well be, however.
The bigger danger for USC is the allegation that somebody on the coaching staff was aware of some of Reggie's benefits.
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ant80
Think less, feel more.
BB73;608413; said:
Reggie Bush's parents were living in a $1Million house. He doesn't have to be a genius to figure out that his parents couldn't afford that. Reggie Bush KNEW... ALL THE WAY, regardless of what he admits. Whether the coaching staff knew and decided to turn a blind eye to him is another matter entirely though.
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Folanator
Brawndo's got electrolytes...
From the Yahoo article...
Ornstein is the guy that gave his cc to Bush. Allegedly they have RB's signatures in hand.
Ornstein admitted it, he gave a job to Bush. I do not see how he could not be considered a booster by the letter of the NCAA laws.
If he is a booster, and provided extra benefits, then USC has a bunch of exposure. But I do not see it as a failure to control issue. I see it as a rouge booster issue. Certainly not USC's fault, but they will be punished some how.
However, if the staff was aware of the problem, then they could be absolutely screwed.
Ornstein is the guy that gave his cc to Bush. Allegedly they have RB's signatures in hand.
Ornstein admitted it, he gave a job to Bush. I do not see how he could not be considered a booster by the letter of the NCAA laws.
If he is a booster, and provided extra benefits, then USC has a bunch of exposure. But I do not see it as a failure to control issue. I see it as a rouge booster issue. Certainly not USC's fault, but they will be punished some how.
However, if the staff was aware of the problem, then they could be absolutely screwed.
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sandgk
Watson, Crick & A Twist
The only way I see that comes into play is if someone confirms concretely that the $28,000 debt pay-off by Michaels to Griffin actually happened. That would be making cash off the future prospective earnings of a student athlete. It allegedly was agreed on in or around October/November 2004.BB73;608413; said:
Aside from that one instance, all other allegations fall post-BCS title game 2005 with the earliest alleged benefit to Bush's parents coming in March 2005.
As for the ESPN not on the sideline any more, this is the link to their article titled Bush not worried, which largely re-tells the Yahoo article content.
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Bush Calls Carroll
Former USC tailback Reggie Bush called Pete Carroll last night and again stated he did not receive improper financial benefits from sports marketing agents.
``He was very firm about all of that,'' Carroll said. ``He wanted to make sure the situation is exactly as it was from the start.''
Link
Former USC tailback Reggie Bush called Pete Carroll last night and again stated he did not receive improper financial benefits from sports marketing agents.
``He was very firm about all of that,'' Carroll said. ``He wanted to make sure the situation is exactly as it was from the start.''
Link
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USC fans will like this opinion.
cfn
You Can't Unring the Bell
[SIZE=-2]By Pete Fiutak
[/SIZE]1. You're too late, NCAA. Reggie Bush won the 2005 Heisman. USC won a national title, played in another championship game, and earned all the money it deserved from the BCS appearances over the last three years. Now there's talk of wiping the record books of all of those things if Bush, while still in school, and his family, as has been alleged, took around $100,000 from a sports marketing company.
You're too late.
If someone had caught Bush violating NCAA rules at the time, when he was still eligible, that's one thing, but you can't tag USC retroactively. The games happened. The memories are there. If you want to punish the school in the future by taking away scholarships and bowl eligibility, that's another story, but you can't rewrite history.
What if a former University of Chicago football player had documented proof that Jay Berwanger took $40 from a booster to go buy a suit? Would the 1935 Heisman be taken away and given to Army's Monk Meyer? Of course not. What if we find out ten years from now that three starters off the 2005 Texas national championship team were given a few turkey sandwiches by boosters? Depending on the context, that's an NCAA violation. Should those players be declared ineligible after the fact and should Texas forfeit its title? Please.
If you really, really, want to do some serious reporting and digging, you can probably find a way to take away the national title from anyone who's won it over the last 50+ years. Heismans? Get out your handy dandy notebook and your thinking chair and you can probably find something on most Heisman winners from around 1950 through the early 1980s, when there was out-and-out open bidding for top talent and boosters ran amok.
Reggie, don't give that trophy back and Vince, reject it if he does. USC, don’t give back a dime. NCAA, do a better job next time
cfn
You Can't Unring the Bell
[SIZE=-2]By Pete Fiutak
[/SIZE]1. You're too late, NCAA. Reggie Bush won the 2005 Heisman. USC won a national title, played in another championship game, and earned all the money it deserved from the BCS appearances over the last three years. Now there's talk of wiping the record books of all of those things if Bush, while still in school, and his family, as has been alleged, took around $100,000 from a sports marketing company.
You're too late.
If someone had caught Bush violating NCAA rules at the time, when he was still eligible, that's one thing, but you can't tag USC retroactively. The games happened. The memories are there. If you want to punish the school in the future by taking away scholarships and bowl eligibility, that's another story, but you can't rewrite history.
What if a former University of Chicago football player had documented proof that Jay Berwanger took $40 from a booster to go buy a suit? Would the 1935 Heisman be taken away and given to Army's Monk Meyer? Of course not. What if we find out ten years from now that three starters off the 2005 Texas national championship team were given a few turkey sandwiches by boosters? Depending on the context, that's an NCAA violation. Should those players be declared ineligible after the fact and should Texas forfeit its title? Please.
If you really, really, want to do some serious reporting and digging, you can probably find a way to take away the national title from anyone who's won it over the last 50+ years. Heismans? Get out your handy dandy notebook and your thinking chair and you can probably find something on most Heisman winners from around 1950 through the early 1980s, when there was out-and-out open bidding for top talent and boosters ran amok.
Reggie, don't give that trophy back and Vince, reject it if he does. USC, don’t give back a dime. NCAA, do a better job next time
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Dennis Dodd weighs in.
sportsline
My take on the Reggie Bush situation. ...
The NCAA can't take away Southern California's 2004 national championship.
The BCS commissioners, who do have that power, don't have the stomach for it.
In other words, they're not going to stare across a mahogany table and tell brother Tom Hansen, the Pac-10 commissioner, they're putting his prize program in timeout.
Same for the Heisman Trophy Trust. Ripping the statue has never been done. It is such a sensitive subject that a spokesman wouldn't even comment on it Friday.
Oh yeah, and there's a double murderer still walking around with his trophy. How is Reggie Bush taking $100,000 worse than that?
That leaves us with USC. There is a mountainous burden of proof on the Pac-10 and NCAA to determine if the school knew or should have known if
Bush was taking benefits.
In other words, investigators need a memo, e-mail, letter, something that shows the school knew about this and ignored it. Good luck.
The biggest deal here is that Bush is out of school. His family is living in the lap of luxury thanks to his multi-million dollar contracts. Marketing agent Mike Ornstein, seemingly one of the culprits in this case, got his client and his money.
Who, exactly, is going to come forward and cooperate with the NCAA and Pac-10? None of those sources are compelled to because investigators don't have subpoena power.
Is Pete Carroll running a loose ship? I don't think there is any question. The Matt Leinart/Dwayne Jarrett situation, allegations of sexual and physical assaults against various players. It's all getting very seedy out there in La-La Land.
Is USC compliance at fault? Absolutely. If the Internet report is true, then Ornstein himself was working with the school in lining up an internship for Bush. Ornstein is well known in NFL and college circles. More care should have been taken.
But will USC be found guilty of a lack of institutional control? That's going to be hard to prove because of the reasons stated above.
Does this go on more than anyone cares to believe? Yup to that too. Check out Bush's teammate on the Saints, Joe Horn.
"I don't think Reggie did that, but if he did, I would have done it, too," Horn told the AP. "And guess what? Eighty percent of the college athletes that don't have much when they're in college get money, too. So they should ban all of them. They should go after everybody. Don't just go after Reggie because he's Reggie Bush." ...
In a way this case comes down to two guys I've sat next to and had conversations with -- Ornstein and SEC commissioner Mike Slive.
I sat with Ornstein in the press box at Arrowhead Stadium when he was with the Raiders. We talked. He cheered. Nice guy. It was obvious he was a big deal. But who in the NFL doesn't think they're a big deal?
Could he have done it? Sure.
Slive is the current BCS coordinator who would have to oversee any discussion about taking away USC's championship. I'm going to see him this weekend at the LSU-Auburn game.
Slive, a former NCAA investigator and long-time commissioner, is one of the nicest and most conscientious people on Earth. This shouldn't have to happen to him, but it might.
Back in April when we were at the BCS meetings in Phoenix, it was clear Mike didn't want to consider the possibility of having to deal with USC.
"This is brand new for me so I didn't think about it at all," Slive told SportsLine.com and other reporters in April. "It's interesting that it has not come up before. If such an issue were to arise ... it's one that we will have to begin to think about and talk about." ...
Reading some feedback and other websites, there seems to be a huge "so what?" factor to this story. Half the readers assume everyone gets paid.
The other half think players should get paid.
They just want their football. ...
sportsline
My take on the Reggie Bush situation. ...
The NCAA can't take away Southern California's 2004 national championship.
The BCS commissioners, who do have that power, don't have the stomach for it.
In other words, they're not going to stare across a mahogany table and tell brother Tom Hansen, the Pac-10 commissioner, they're putting his prize program in timeout.
Same for the Heisman Trophy Trust. Ripping the statue has never been done. It is such a sensitive subject that a spokesman wouldn't even comment on it Friday.
Oh yeah, and there's a double murderer still walking around with his trophy. How is Reggie Bush taking $100,000 worse than that?
That leaves us with USC. There is a mountainous burden of proof on the Pac-10 and NCAA to determine if the school knew or should have known if
Bush was taking benefits.
In other words, investigators need a memo, e-mail, letter, something that shows the school knew about this and ignored it. Good luck.
The biggest deal here is that Bush is out of school. His family is living in the lap of luxury thanks to his multi-million dollar contracts. Marketing agent Mike Ornstein, seemingly one of the culprits in this case, got his client and his money.
Who, exactly, is going to come forward and cooperate with the NCAA and Pac-10? None of those sources are compelled to because investigators don't have subpoena power.
Is Pete Carroll running a loose ship? I don't think there is any question. The Matt Leinart/Dwayne Jarrett situation, allegations of sexual and physical assaults against various players. It's all getting very seedy out there in La-La Land.
Is USC compliance at fault? Absolutely. If the Internet report is true, then Ornstein himself was working with the school in lining up an internship for Bush. Ornstein is well known in NFL and college circles. More care should have been taken.
But will USC be found guilty of a lack of institutional control? That's going to be hard to prove because of the reasons stated above.
Does this go on more than anyone cares to believe? Yup to that too. Check out Bush's teammate on the Saints, Joe Horn.
"I don't think Reggie did that, but if he did, I would have done it, too," Horn told the AP. "And guess what? Eighty percent of the college athletes that don't have much when they're in college get money, too. So they should ban all of them. They should go after everybody. Don't just go after Reggie because he's Reggie Bush." ...
In a way this case comes down to two guys I've sat next to and had conversations with -- Ornstein and SEC commissioner Mike Slive.
I sat with Ornstein in the press box at Arrowhead Stadium when he was with the Raiders. We talked. He cheered. Nice guy. It was obvious he was a big deal. But who in the NFL doesn't think they're a big deal?
Could he have done it? Sure.
Slive is the current BCS coordinator who would have to oversee any discussion about taking away USC's championship. I'm going to see him this weekend at the LSU-Auburn game.
Slive, a former NCAA investigator and long-time commissioner, is one of the nicest and most conscientious people on Earth. This shouldn't have to happen to him, but it might.
Back in April when we were at the BCS meetings in Phoenix, it was clear Mike didn't want to consider the possibility of having to deal with USC.
"This is brand new for me so I didn't think about it at all," Slive told SportsLine.com and other reporters in April. "It's interesting that it has not come up before. If such an issue were to arise ... it's one that we will have to begin to think about and talk about." ...
Reading some feedback and other websites, there seems to be a huge "so what?" factor to this story. Half the readers assume everyone gets paid.
The other half think players should get paid.
They just want their football. ...
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