Indians Tidbits (2009 season)

[Brutus1]

yep, the guys toronto wanted were guys philly thought were too good to trade for halliday. why you think cleveland would have gotten any of them for lee is puzzling.

It's puzzling to expect 1 major league player for the Cy Young winner ? Like it or not, he's been one of the best pitchers in the majors for the last 2 years. It's puzzling to not get ONE of their current top 4 prospects for the Cy Young winner who is still pitching very good ? We're not talking some turd 3 or 4 starter. He's the #1 guy on a shitty team.

Sure, some may be overestimating Lee, but on the flip side, you're definitely underestimating him and buying into the talk that those prospects are top notch.

I'm not even an Indians fan,but I just believe they could have done better. Not alot, but better. I think they could have gotten Happ in the deal, but they (Indians) believe that it's better to get prospects that are not as close to ml ready, than it is to get prospects that are nearly ready. I guess they want to rebuild for a run 3 years from now.

 

[Brutus1]

lee was part of the bartolo colon trade to montreal. but, i guess you can give the expos credit for developing him all the way to high A ball before sending him to cleveland as a throw in.

Well, he did only get 11 starts in Clevelands system before he got called up.


I see somewhat where you're coming from T. People will forever live off the Colon trade and those type of trades hardly ever happen. That may have been the best haul by any team in the last 20 years. A trade like that won't happen again.

 

[tsteele316]

It's puzzling to expect 1 major league player for the Cy Young winner ? Like it or not, he's been one of the best pitchers in the majors for the last 2 years. It's puzzling to not get ONE of their current top 4 prospects for the Cy Young winner who is still pitching very good ? We're not talking some turd 3 or 4 starter. He's the #1 guy on a shitty team.

Sure, some may be overestimating Lee, but on the flip side, you're definitely underestimating him and buying into the talk that those prospects are top notch.

I'm not even an Indians fan,but I just believe they could have done better. Not alot, but better. I think they could have gotten Happ in the deal, but they (Indians) believe that it's better to get prospects that are not as close to ml ready, than it is to get prospects that are nearly ready. I guess they want to rebuild for a run 3 years from now.

again, they got the 2, 3, 4, prospects from the phillies based on BA's rankings. Carasco is more major league ready than anyone Cleveland got from the Sabathia trade. so, again, I fail to see what you expected to get in return. toronto may have been able to pry taylor from the phillies as opposed to either donald or marson.

 

[itownbuckeye]

I'm not even an Indians fan,but I just believe they could have done better. Not alot, but better. I think they could have gotten Happ in the deal, but they (Indians) believe that it's better to get prospects that are not as close to ml ready, than it is to get prospects that are nearly ready. I guess they want to rebuild for a run 3 years from now.

Actually the opposite is part of my problem with this trade. They took a couple of guys with minimal upside (Marson & Donald) who are close to ML ready. I would rather they had taken three or four lower level prospects (at least two pitchers) who have the potential to be above average ML players than these two guys. If you're going to rebuild then I think you should do it all the way. Why not go for more guys who could potentially be the next Cliff Lee as opposed to the next Jamey Carroll?

 

[Brutus1]

again, they got the 2, 3, 4, prospects from the phillies based on BA's rankings. Carasco is more major league ready than anyone Cleveland got from the Sabathia trade. so, again, I fail to see what you expected to get in return. toronto may have been able to pry taylor from the phillies as opposed to either donald or marson.

Uh, CC was a free agent in 2 months, that's the big difference.

Hey, I'm fine if you want to drink that kool-aid of them being Baseball America's 2, 3 and 4 Philly pre-season prospects. There's a reason Philly refused to part with Drabek,Brown, Taylor and Happ but gladly got rid of these 4.

Geez, Adam Miller was Cleveland's #1 prospect for four of the last 5 years. That's really working out well, huh ? You need a big grain of salt when relying on baseball prospects.

 

[OH10]

Are we starting the official countdown to Victo's trade?

 

[tsteele316]

Uh, CC was a free agent in 2 months, that's the big difference.

Hey, I'm fine if you want to drink that kool-aid of them being Baseball America's 2, 3 and 4 Philly pre-season prospects. There's a reason Philly refused to part with Drabek,Brown, Taylor and Happ but gladly got rid of these 4.

Geez, Adam Miller was Cleveland's #1 prospect for four of the last 5 years. That's really working out well, huh ? You need a big grain of salt when relying on baseball prospects.

and again, since you fail to answer the question every time, since philly wasn't going to give up any of the above mentioned guys for halliday, what did you expect cleveland to get for cliff lee. Knapp is a better prospect than either of the pitchers cleveland got for CC. Carasco is about as ML ready as Laporta is right now, despite being 3 years younger. Both Donald and Marson are on par with Brantley in terms of where they project in the bigs.

call it koolaid all you want, but cleveland wasn't going to get a much better return from a guy that everyone knew was going to be moved to clear salary.

 

[BayBuck]

and again, since you fail to answer the question every time, since philly wasn't going to give up any of the above mentioned guys for halliday...

It's not that they weren't going to give up ANY of them, but Philly wasn't going to give up ALL of them for Halladay. Philly really wanted one of these two upper-echelon starters and could have been pushed to substitute one of those top prospects in a trade for Lee.

 

[tsteele316]

It's not that they weren't going to give up ANY of them, but Philly wasn't going to give up ALL of them for Halladay. Philly really wanted one of these two upper-echelon starters and could have been pushed to substitute one of those top prospects in a trade for Lee.

as i said before, philly wasn't giving up brown or drabek for anyone. reportedly cleveland was offered taylor in expense for knapp and marson and said no. given that marson is probably going to be the starting catcher next year, you can see why.

and as i said pages ago, the fact that it was well known that cleveland was basically forced into trading lee to dump salary, whatever leverage they did have was basically gone.

 

[AmeriBuck007]

It's not that they weren't going to give up ANY of them, but Philly wasn't going to give up ALL of them for Halladay. Philly really wanted one of these two upper-echelon starters and could have been pushed to substitute one of those top prospects in a trade for Lee.

I don't even know why everyone was so high on Happ. Yeah he's having a good year in the bigs but he's 27 and is just another soft throwing lefty which we have plenty of. My only issue with the trade is that we didn't get Taylor instead of Marson or Donald. Regardless, I trust Shapiro enough to know he got the best value out there for Cliff

 

[Brutus1]

and again, since you fail to answer the question every time, since philly wasn't going to give up any of the above mentioned guys for halliday, what did you expect cleveland to get for cliff lee. Knapp is a better prospect than either of the pitchers cleveland got for CC. Carasco is about as ML ready as Laporta is right now, despite being 3 years younger. Both Donald and Marson are on par with Brantley in terms of where they project in the bigs.

call it koolaid all you want, but cleveland wasn't going to get a much better return from a guy that everyone knew was going to be moved to clear salary.

Uh, read back. I mentioned Happ.

I'm glad you really like a prospect that has 80+ innings in LOW A ball with an era over 4.

You move $14M guys to clear salary, not $6M.

You're happy with the return.

I think they got fleeced.

I guess we'll find out in 3 or 4 years.

By the way, do you know how many of Clevelands top 10 prospects, according to Baseball America, from the 2005-2007 seasons are making a decent contribution to the Indians ? Yep, none.

 

[tsteele316]

Uh, read back. I mentioned Happ.

I'm glad you really like a prospect that has 80+ innings in LOW A ball with an era over 4.

You move $14M guys to clear salary, not $6M.

You're happy with the return.

I think they got fleeced.

I guess we'll find out in 3 or 4 years.

By the way, do you know how many of Clevelands top 10 prospects, according to Baseball America, from the 2005-2007 seasons are making a decent contribution to the Indians ? Yep, none.

actually, they are clearing $9 million off the books next year, which is what lee's option was.

as for contributing prospects, do you know how much of a contribution cliff lee will make to the indians after 2010 if he wasn't traded? none.

to say cleveland got fleeced is simply whining for the sake of whining.

 

[NFBuck]

I'm glad you really like a prospect that has 80+ innings in LOW A ball with an era over 4.

People put too much stock into numbers in the minor leagues...particularly in A ball.

By the way, do you know how many of Clevelands top 10 prospects, according to Baseball America, from the 2005-2007 seasons are making a decent contribution to the Indians ? Yep, none.

And how, exactly, does that help your argument that they should have gone after "higher" rated propects?

Look, if there's one thing Shapiro has done relatively well in Cleveland, it's finding players in other team's farm systems. This is the one area I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[AmeriBuck007]

Uh, read back. I mentioned Happ.

I'm glad you really like a prospect that has 80+ innings in LOW A ball with an era over 4.

You move $14M guys to clear salary, not $6M.

You're happy with the return.

I think they got fleeced.

I guess we'll find out in 3 or 4 years.

By the way, do you know how many of Clevelands top 10 prospects, according to Baseball America, from the 2005-2007 seasons are making a decent contribution to the Indians ? Yep, none.

Would you rather look back in 3 or 4 years and say "Damn I wish we would have gotten something for Lee when we had the chance".

Let's face it nobody expects us to contend next year and nobody would have expected us to resign Lee after next year.

Stats are far from the most important thing when guys are this young. Our scouts are looking at how these guys project in the future.

Overall I'm impressed what Shapiro has done despite all of this "getting fleeced" talk

 

[AKAK]

as i said before, philly wasn't giving up brown or drabek for anyone. reportedly cleveland was offered taylor in expense for knapp and marson and said no. given that marson is probably going to be the starting catcher next year, you can see why.

and as i said pages ago, the fact that it was well known that cleveland was basically forced into trading lee to dump salary, whatever leverage they did have was basically gone.

Add to that that there aren't as many buyers as last year. We were fortunate (hopefully) that the Brewers got into the Sabathia sweepstakes last year. This year the only real players were Boston and Philly and there are 2 marquis guys out there... So, really, they were probably lucky to get what they did. As to the point of no 2005 to 2007 guys contributing, yeah, that's a good reason to add numbers...

As to Victor... we'll see... if he does get traded, I think that's the end of Wedge...