Heat-Mavs 2011 NBA Finals

[OH10]

Last night Jeff Van Gundy was horrible. He couldn't say a bad thing about LeBron and the Heat. Why doesn't he just admit his love for the heat?

Honestly, what bad things do you want him to say about the best team in the league? I mean, they have the best player in the game, the (arguably) second best player in the game and a gangly, but effective, PF that is probably a top 15 player. There's not much to say that isn't positive... about what they do on the court.

 

[matttank]

And this whole "bands of all-stars" thing really misses the larger point, IMO. LeBron was supposed to be "The King", "The Chosen One" but he left Cleveland to join Wade and Bosh. Wade said it himself in the interview last night, he'd never of gone to Cleveland even if they could have assembled the same squad in Cleveland. It shows a mental weakness in LeBron. He's just not a leader. Yes the Heat are th ebest team in the NBA, but they're also doing what they should be doing when you combine the best player in the world, another top 3 player, and arguably a top 10 player.

This doesn't justify "the decision" at all, IMO. How were they not going to win titles by rigging the league? If LeBron were a true champion he'd have recruited players to Cleveland and cemented his legacy as a champion with the Cavs. There is zero chance you'd have ever seen Bird, Magic, or Jordan leave their city to team up with another super-star, which should really just end the discussion.

I've stayed out of the Cavs/LeBron/Heat threads all year because I disagree with this point immensely, but think you guys deserved some time to hate the guy due to The Decision (the tv show. Also, I don't post a lot and didn't want to side with the Wolverine). There are many reasons why, but since this is the finals thread and I don't want to completely derail it, and since I really don't want to argue with Cavs fans about something that I cannot change their mind about, I'll refrain (unless for some reason you really really want me to in the Lebron thread)

But, to the point of these stars saying what they would or would not have done in LeBron's situation, it plays to one of my biggest pet peeves: people saying what they would "never" or "for sure" do in a situation that they were never in and will never be in. Bird, Magic and Jordan were all in very different situations by the end of their 7th year.

 

[billmac91]

I've stayed out of the Cavs/LeBron/Heat threads all year because I disagree with this point immensely, but think you guys deserved some time to hate the guy due to The Decision (the tv show. Also, I don't post a lot and didn't want to side with the Wolverine). There are many reasons why, but since this is the finals thread and I don't want to completely derail it, and since I really don't want to argue with Cavs fans about something that I cannot change their mind about, I'll refrain (unless for some reason you really really want me to in the Lebron thread)

But, to the point of these stars saying what they would or would not have done in LeBron's situation, it plays to one of my biggest pet peeves: people saying what they would "never" or "for sure" do in a situation that they were never in and will never be in. Bird, Magic and Jordan were all in very different situations by the end of their 7th year.

We don't have to debate. I'd only say Jordan never even made a finals until he was 27. Not only had LeBron accomplished that in Cleveland, they were a player away from being a team that could consistently reach the finals, especially since Boston is/was on its last legs.

His legacy as a champion in Cleveland would far overreach whatever his legacy in Miami will be. Because people know he left the throne for an easier path to a championship. It is what it is.

 

[y0yoyoin]

And I didn't have a problem with The Decision. I think the angst towards that production is overblown and tired. The problem as I saw it was that leaving to play with, not against, probably your only peer in the game going forward, was cowardice.

The other problems I had were quitting in Game 5 vs. Boston and the fact that he failed to recruit any free agents to Cleveland during his 7 years - then having the nerve to blame his teammates several times on the way out and since.

holy shit we are still talking about this?

 

[matttank]

The game wasn't decided on 1 call so I'm not going to belabor this too much...but that call was hot garbage. Chandler re-enters the game with 3 fouls, and is trying to play smart ball. He sets a screen on Haslem to free Dirk, and Haslem absolutely hooks him and causes Chandler to move from his set position.

If you're strictly calling it a moving screen because Chandler was sliding and not set, you'd be correct. But the reason he is moving is because Haslem hooked his arm and forced him off his spot. That isn't an offensive foul. I'd hate to use Jeff Van Gundy as evidence because commentators get details wrong all of the time, but even he said it was a bad call.

In regards to Terry though...there's a reason he got blocked by the rim. It's because he lost control of the ball going up due to Chalmers slapping him on the forearm. The bottom line is he should have been awarded free-throws, and he was.

Like you I agree that 1 call didn't make the game, but what Chandler did was an offensive foul, and\ illegal screen if not a moving one. I've seen what Chandler did called a foul on Joel Anthony in nearly every Heat game this year and on Kendrick Perkins in every game he plays. Sticking your hip out after your teammate rubs off you and catching the player following is a foul.

 

[matttank]

We don't have to debate. I'd only say Jordan never even made a finals until he was 27. Not only had LeBron accomplished that in Cleveland, they were a player away from being a team that could consistently reach the finals, especially since Boston is/was on its last legs.

His legacy as a champion in Cleveland would far overreach whatever his legacy in Miami will be. Because people know he left the throne for an easier path to a championship. It is what it is.

Depends on how many titles he ends up winning, but probably correct. He definitely gave up his shot at the GOAT title with the move, but to say it tarnishes his titles beyond that is something with which I cannot agree.

 

[buckeyesin07]

So from a game in which the Mavs shot 6 more FT's, LeBron and Wade took a combined 7 FT's (when both average over 8 a game in the playoffs), the Heat shot 3 less FT's than their playoff average and the foul total was nearly identical (22-21), all you can conclude is that the NBA wants to give the Heat the series? Do you realize how asinine that sounds? Are you really just basing that off the one bad call on Dirk? What about the bad call against Lebron when the rim rejected Jason Terry so hard that it caused him to fall? Not to mention that Wade couldn't buy a call in the 1st half. Overall, I thought the officiating was utterly forgetable and had no bearing on this game. The Heat making 11 3's and the stink-bomb laid by the Mavs bench is the reason the Heat won.


It will be tarnished in the same way the "bands of all-stars" from the 60's Celtics and the 80's Celtics, Sixers and Lakers are, which is to say, not at all. In fact, besides the '03 Spurs and maybe the 94-95 Rockets, I really can't remember a team that didn't have multiple established all-stars that won a title. Not quite on the Wade-LeBron level (except the 00-02 Lakers with Shaq and Kobe), but still multiple top 20 players. The league has always been unbalanced, it really is the nature of the game since so few guys play relative to other team sports. This is why there have been so many dynasties in the NBA. So quit acting like LeBron the the Heatles started this trend that you apparently had no problem with until now. They aren't even the original big 3.

And you do realize that the "aging" Celtics had a larger band of all-stars than the Heat this year, right?

This bucket of fail has already been sufficiently addressed by others, I've seen.

 

[TooTall]

I will admit, the amount of flopping that was going on in the game was a disgrace. I thought I was watching Real Madrid-Barcelona out there. It was all starting with the "if you breath on Wade, you get called for a foul" approach, then a couple others joined the fun. Then the Mavs struck back with some flopping of their own. It's pretty sad when players figure they have to flop to get the calls. Which is one reason why I despise the NBA more than any other sport here. I remember one play where the shot clock was running down and Dwayne Wade's attempt at a shot basically equated to driving into someone (initiating the contact), falling backwards shooting the ball, and falling to the ground. And the refs gave him the call. It was disgusting.

 

[matttank]

This bucket of fail has already been sufficiently addressed by others, I've seen.

How is it a bucket of fail? Other than the fact that I didn't see Chalmers hit Terry before he was swatted by the rim (and the wrong call was still made, I think the Heat will take a foul on Chalmers over LeBron every day of the week) none of those facts has been disputed, and your hyperbolic claim that the game proved the NBA has the officials rigging the game for the Heat was utterly proved false by the first sentence in my initial reply. Really, all anyone has done is bitch about 4-5 calls, all but 2 of which are very debatable, over a 48 minute game.

 

[Tlangs]

I will admit, the amount of flopping that was going on in the game was a disgrace. I thought I was watching Real Madrid-Barcelona out there. It was all starting with the "if you breath on Wade, you get called for a foul" approach, then a couple others joined the fun. Then the Mavs struck back with some flopping of their own. It's pretty sad when players figure they have to flop to get the calls. Which is one reason why I despise the NBA more than any other sport here. I remember one play where the shot clock was running down and Dwayne Wade's attempt at a shot basically equated to driving into someone (initiating the contact), falling backwards shooting the ball, and falling to the ground. And the refs game him the call. It was disgusting.

blame the refs...not the players. If it's the NBA finals and the shot clock is running down, I'm flailing to the floor as well.

 

[buckeyesin07]

How is it a bucket of fail? Other than the fact that I didn't see Chalmers hit Terry before he was swatted by the rim (and the wrong call was still made, I think the Heat will take a foul on Chalmers over LeBron every day of the week) none of those facts has been disputed, and your hyperbolic claim that the game proved the NBA has the officials rigging the game for the Heat was utterly proved false by the first sentence in my initial reply. Really, all anyone has done is bitch about 4-5 calls, all but 2 of which are very debatable, over a 48 minute game.

You proved nothing to be false, believe me. You thinking that all you have to do is count the free throws to conclude that game was fairly officiated is, quite simply, laughable. That's a simple-minded way of viewing things. Timing of calls, how aggressive each team is being, etc. all come into play. By the way, you may want to read through the thread--you should be able to find others claiming that the officiating left a lot to be desired last night.

 

[TooTall]

blame the refs...not the players. If it's the NBA finals and the shot clock is running down, I'm flailing to the floor as well.

I don't care to blame any certain person or people. All I'm saying is the flopping is outrageous. The fact the refs allowed that kind of bull[Mark May] to go on, is laughable. Hard to take the NBA seriously when players are falling down while getting breathed on.

 

[billmac91]

How is it a bucket of fail? Other than the fact that I didn't see Chalmers hit Terry before he was swatted by the rim (and the wrong call was still made, I think the Heat will take a foul on Chalmers over LeBron every day of the week) none of those facts has been disputed, and your hyperbolic claim that the game proved the NBA has the officials rigging the game for the Heat was utterly proved false by the first sentence in my initial reply. Really, all anyone has done is bitch about 4-5 calls, all but 2 of which are very debatable, over a 48 minute game.

In fairness, there were a lot of other bad calls too...I just chose to focus on the 4th quarter. But the LeBron travel was in the second quarter. After Dallas had a nice run in the third, momentum swung on a phantom call on DeShawn Stevenson. Wade made a nice lay-up contorting his body, but there was no contact and Stevenson conceded the lay-up. But Wade got the And-1 due to his loud yelling that officials seem to love so much...

JJ Barea was also hip checked much of the night. I can see awarding him fouls difficult because an average NBA hip-check shouldn't generate so much force but the guy is 5'5. A foul is a foul.

Also, whether they influence the initial shot or not, it a foul for LeBron to continually make contact with the shooters after release. He slapped J-Kidds wrist after a shot, and left his leg under Jason Terry after a 3. Both could of been called, but since they didn't alter the initial shot neither were called.

The LeBron travel just took the cake though...I haven;t seen a more blatant travel in my entire life. Well except for that 6 step travel he had against Chicago that put Miami up 2 under 30 seconds....

 

[Bucklion]

I don't care to blame any certain person or people. All I'm saying is the flopping is outrageous. The fact the refs allowed that kind of bull[Mark May] to go on, is laughable. Hard to take the NBA seriously when players are falling down while getting breathed on.

Vlade Divac wants a word with you...

 

[buckeyesin07]

In fairness, there were a lot of other bad calls too...I just chose to focus on the 4th quarter. But the LeBron travel was in the second quarter. After Dallas had a nice run in the third, momentum swung on a phantom call on DeShawn Stevenson. Wade made a nice lay-up contorting his body, but there was no contact and Stevenson conceded the lay-up. But Wade got the And-1 due to his loud yelling that officials seem to love so much...

JJ Barea was also hip checked much of the night. I can see awarding him fouls difficult because an average NBA hip-check shouldn't generate so much force but the guy is 5'5. A foul is a foul.

Also, whether they influence the initial shot or not, it a foul for LeBron to continually make contact with the shooters after release. He slapped J-Kidds wrist after a shot, and left his leg under Jason Terry after a 3. Both could of been called, but since they didn't alter the initial shot neither were called.

The LeBron travel just took the cake though...I haven;t seen a more blatant travel in my entire life. Well except for that 6 step travel he had against Chicago that put Miami up 2 under 30 seconds....

Let's not forget the LBJ phantom and-1 in the first half in which he absolutely jumped into Dirk on a fast break and flung his head backwards as if punched in the face (an LBJ favorite, as it's become). Barely any contact at all (and all initiated by LBJ, who jumped into Dirk), and yet he gets the call. It stopped momentum that the Mavs had going at the time. This is just another example.