That's not a good argument. Just because Vince wouldn't have won the NC at Baylor doesn't mean Texas could have won it with somebody else at QB.bchorn said:
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lvbuckeye
Silver Surfer
i was busting your balls...
his bowl record without VY is 3-3. i'll freely admit that you know more about Texas football than i do, but winning the Holiday Bowl when you should be in a BCS game seems a little weak to be hanging your hat on.Do you even know what Mack Brown's bowl record is? It's 5-3. I don't know what standard you expect your coaches to uphold to, but I'm pretty happy with that record. I would also go out on a limb and say that most Longhorns also mimic this same opinion. More importantly, he's 2-0 in BCS bowls. He also has a victory over LSU in the 2002 Cotton Bowl. I guess by your standards, Mack Brown must have outcoached Nick Saban.
you do realize that what you are saying is akin to the Cal Bears saying "i don't care if we lose to USC, because as long as we beat Stanford, we had a good season." do you not want to be the best? to be the best you have to beat the best, and playing semantics with whom your 'real' rival is doesn't cut it...
i'm not flaming. i'm stating how valuable i think VY has been to Texas' program. he's perhaps THE MOST valuable player in Texas' football history... and he's certainly the MVP of Mack Brown's career.
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SanAntonioBuck
RIP Our Friend and Hero
That statement is so true! VY took Mack Brown to the mountain top!
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inVINCEable
Booyakasha!
I guess I must have misinterpreted the tone of your statement...my bad.
I completely agree, however that was not what your original statement was. Your orignal statement to what I was responding to was "stunk up the Bowl games." I was simply using the record to convey that perhaps that language is a little too strong. Regardless of whether Mack Brown had Vince or not, his record is 5-3. It's not fair to simply ignore the achievements of a coach without a certain player. I could easily say the same for tOSU and Ginn, particularly vs. Notre Dame where Ginn had a field day. The same with Reggie Bush and USC. Would USC had beat Notre Dame without the infamous Bush Push? Who knows? In two of Mack's losses, I believe we were fairly competitive with a good chance at winning in the 4th quarter. I would also like to add, you should credit Mack Brown for regrouping the troops and getting them ready to play...unlike Cal 2004 and Oregon 2005 (although those teams' resepective positions were probably quite different).
Not at all. I would hate to lose period no matter what the competition. What I am simply saying is that Mack has done well against Aggy. Had Mack lost 5 consequitive times to Aggy, and lost only once against OU...I can't say with full confidence that he would still have a job. The hatred for Aggy is that deeply rooted.
I agree completely about Vince, and I apologize for saying you were flaming. Obviously a problem of misinterpretation that is common among internet message boards. I think what I and bchorn were trying to get across is that Texas's success simply wasn't because of let "Vince be Vince." The Vince was Vince mentality can easily be seen esp. in his freshman year and parts of his sophmore year as well (even against Michigan where he trusted his feet more than his ability to throw). However, to say that Mack is not responsible for the maturation of Vince is pure stupidity. There was some difference in going from being a horrific passer to being one of the very best. That maturation did not occur simply with Vince alone. Mack Brown and Greg Davis should get a good portion of the credit for trusting Vince and designing a gameplan to fit his abilities.
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DallasBuckeye
All-American
my bad on mis-typing Vince's "senior" season - I knew that this would be his senior year.
however, I don't see how you can have it both ways. in the same paragraph you give Mack and Greg credit for helping Vince develop as a player, and then say "give them credit for designing a gameplan to fit his abilities." his abilities didn't grow - they designed and played with what Vince could do. in other words, and as Mack has said, let Vince be Vince.
truth is Vince didn't develop that much last year. they just let him do what he can do with his feet. but he never became the deep passing threat and all the talk prior to the NLF draft about that shows so.
the point here is not "Is Vince a great player?" because he obviously was for Texas. the point is Mack Brown has botched deciding about QBs and QB development prior to Vince's arrival (see Simms vs Applewhite) and even fouled up Vince for a year before finally getting out of the way.
that is hardly a record to envy. with a little luck he can get the two current QB's into the same mess!
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xrayrandy
Blowhard Statistician
That comment is not anywhere close to being true. His passing improved tremendously during the offseason. That's why he went from being an average passer the year before to the best in the country by the end of the regular season. The truth is that Vince didn't work that hard, either in drills or the film room in previous offseasons, or he might have been further along.
I don't see where Mack botched the development of any of the Texas starters in the last 8 years. Applewhite had knee surgery, so Simms played since he was healthy. Applewhite never regained the starting spot, that happens sometime. And, Simms was never known to work very hard in the off-season, not like Vince. Simms needs to take a long hard look in the mirror, if he wants to lay blame for his slow development.
Mack did mishandle Adam Dunn, but that worked out OK for Dunn, and Dunn wasn't about to pass Applewhite or Simms on the depthchart anyway.
I really don't see this conversation having any bearing on this seasons situation. Colt is far enough ahead, that baring injury he will start all year and play the vast majority of the snaps. He is further along developmentally than any RS freshman I have ever seen.
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DallasBuckeye
All-American
VY was a lot of things but he was never close to being the best passer in the country. talk about orange colored glasses!
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I believe that prior to the Bowl games, VY was actually leading the nation in passing efficiency. Before Carpenter had enough stats to qualify.
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DallasBuckeye
All-American
that may be so, but leading in passing efficiency doesn't mean you're the best passer in the country. if we offered Randy a million dollars if the QB of his choice could complete a 40 yard crossing route, a 65 yard bomb and a 30 yard sideline out he wouldn't take VY ever. now, if it was 3rd and 30 and he wanted someone to run for it...
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txbuckeye1983
We are the innovators, they are the imitators
To say Vince wasn't a good passing QB last year is ignorant. Obviously, his feet had something to do with how good a passer he was last year, but the same could be said about Troy Smith.
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he's not the best, but he was a very good passer last year. No offense, but it seems you have a very comparable burnt orange bias, just one of hatred for the local team.
given randy's obsession with stats, and this uncharacteristic break from his routine... I decided to look back on some of his wonderful stat-obsessed predictions last year. Here are a few enjoyable blasts from the past:
(to his credit, he did predict "nobody charles", tho there were very few players he didn't talk well about)
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DallasBuckeye
All-American
didnt' say he wasn't good, just said he wasn't the nation's best. who would argue with that? anyone really ready to say VY was THE SINGLE BEST PASSING QB in the country last year? please... he was very good at what he did and he passed well when he had to in the kind of passes they called for him. but there is no way he was the best passer in the country period.
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campies
Senior
In regards to the Mack-before-Vince discussion, Vince Young just happened to be the 'tip of the iceberg' as the most visible and positive change in a Texas program that desperately needed changes to become the best of the best, but make no mistake; there were many other wholesale changes that restructured this program to where it is now, mostly following the 2003 season. People find it easy to point to Vince as being the primary culprit, and frankly, thats a pretty reasonable assumption. However, look a bit closer, and you will see that Vince did not become the Vince that we all know of until after coming to terms with the coaching staff, a move that refected the philosophical changes made to better interact with realize the potential of their great players almost as much as it did Vince putting his stamp on the program.
Mack Brown and his staff have always been masters of the relational aspects of assembling and running a top-flite program, however, when it came to games with the best where their limits where tested, they could never successfully mate that healthy, communal atmosphere with the killer instinct and hard-nosed demeanor needed to win at all costs. Following unfullfilled expectations and weaknesses surrounding the team following the seasons of 2003 and before, Mack Brown essentially hired a consulting firm to audit his program and make some fundamental changes for the better, all of which happened to coincide with the Vince Young years, 2002-2005. Whether by upgrading position coaches and cordinators to top-flight status, rather than good-faith relationships, Vince Young's magic transcending the team game, or Mack and co. simply saying "We gotta change to make it to the top, so lets try a different way," the last 2 years have signified the fruits of that labor with a record of 25-1, two Rose Bowl victories, a conference title, and a National Championship. I think its safe to say that while Vince was the headliner for the act, the whole band learned a different tune over the last few years. It has finally harnessed the family-atmosphere bond with a healthy desire to win above else, in a way that motivates through pride, trust, and respect, and not with fear, pressure, and expectation. Those are the reasons above others I believe you've seen the program rise to the level its at, where the Vince Youngs of the world can be be Vince Youngs, with proper success to match it, unlike the Chris Simms's and Major Applewhites, who may have experienced similiar success, yet given the team dynamic, were never given the proper chance. Oh well. All I can say is the future is as bright as the stars at night. Deep in the............k, I'm not ACTUALLY going to do that. I hate people who think that being from Texas means you get up to that antiquicated tune in the morning. Nevertheless, its never been better to be a Longhorn, and judging by the state of the program, the good times look to roll for some time into the future. Here's to a great game on the 9th!!
Mack Brown and his staff have always been masters of the relational aspects of assembling and running a top-flite program, however, when it came to games with the best where their limits where tested, they could never successfully mate that healthy, communal atmosphere with the killer instinct and hard-nosed demeanor needed to win at all costs. Following unfullfilled expectations and weaknesses surrounding the team following the seasons of 2003 and before, Mack Brown essentially hired a consulting firm to audit his program and make some fundamental changes for the better, all of which happened to coincide with the Vince Young years, 2002-2005. Whether by upgrading position coaches and cordinators to top-flight status, rather than good-faith relationships, Vince Young's magic transcending the team game, or Mack and co. simply saying "We gotta change to make it to the top, so lets try a different way," the last 2 years have signified the fruits of that labor with a record of 25-1, two Rose Bowl victories, a conference title, and a National Championship. I think its safe to say that while Vince was the headliner for the act, the whole band learned a different tune over the last few years. It has finally harnessed the family-atmosphere bond with a healthy desire to win above else, in a way that motivates through pride, trust, and respect, and not with fear, pressure, and expectation. Those are the reasons above others I believe you've seen the program rise to the level its at, where the Vince Youngs of the world can be be Vince Youngs, with proper success to match it, unlike the Chris Simms's and Major Applewhites, who may have experienced similiar success, yet given the team dynamic, were never given the proper chance. Oh well. All I can say is the future is as bright as the stars at night. Deep in the............k, I'm not ACTUALLY going to do that. I hate people who think that being from Texas means you get up to that antiquicated tune in the morning. Nevertheless, its never been better to be a Longhorn, and judging by the state of the program, the good times look to roll for some time into the future. Here's to a great game on the 9th!!
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