Game Thread Game Two: #1 Ohio State 24, #2 Texas 7 (9/9/06)

[MililaniBuckeye]

1) The guy produced nearly 900 yards rushing (7.4 ypc) and 11 td's in limited and split time, while playing alongside a 1000+ yard QB who may have been the most prolific running quarterback in NCAA history.
2) Despite being injured and playing among some other very good backs last season, Jamaal was starting as a true freshman, and will only continue to get bigger, faster, stronger and more experienced as a player, and yet, as of right now, his measurables are phenomenal: 6'1, 190+ lbs, 4.3x 40, nation-leading prep 110 and 300 meter hurdle times that rival Teddy Ginn's record-setting HS times, as well as his 6.65 60 meter indoor time for the UT track team this year at the NCAA's (4th place finish) that has been documented.

Well, let's look at some of the teams against which he gained that yardage:

La-Lafayette (#91 rush defense): 135 yards
Rice (#109 rush defense): 189 yards

He got way over 1/3 of his yards (324 out of 878) against just two teams. He gained only 26 yards on 10 carries against us, 20 yards on seven carries against Oklahoma State, and only 10 yards on five carries against A&M...not overly impressive.

Let's look at Antonio Pittman. He's only a year older and despite being smaller and slower than Charles (and behind arguably a lesser OL), he gained far more yardage and never averaged under 3.2 ypc against any opponent (he even gained 3.9 ypc at Penn State despite their stuffing the line and playing in a rainstorm). Charles averaged under 2.9 ypc in at least three games.

As for Charles' measureables, they mean squat. Our 3rd string RB (Eric Haw) is faster (4.28 40) and significantly bigger (6'1", 215)...note that he's our 3rd string RB.

No doubt that Charles has a huge upside, but to call him the best RB in the country as a sophomore when he really hasn't done all that much is nothing more than blind homerism.

 

[SanAntonioBuck]

Well, let's look at some of the teams against which he gained that yardage:

La-Lafayette (#91 rush defense): 135 yards
Rice (#109 rush defense): 189 yards

He got way over 1/3 of his yards (324 out of 878) against just two teams. He gained only 26 yards on 10 carries against us, 20 yards on seven carries against Oklahoma State, and only 10 yards on five carries against A&M...not overly impressive.

Let's look at Antonio Pittman. He's only a year older and despite being smaller and slower than Charles (and behind arguably a lesser OL), he gained far more yardage and never averaged under 3.2 ypc against any opponent (he even gained 3.9 ypc at Penn State despite their stuffing the line and playing in a rainstorm). Charles averaged under 2.9 ypc in at least three games.

As for Charles' measureables, they mean squat. Our 3rd string RB (Eric Haw) is faster (4.28 40) and significantly bigger (6'1", 215)...note that he's our 3rd string RB.

No doubt that Charles has a huge upside, but to call him the best RB in the country as a sophomore when he really hasn't done all that much is nothing more than blind homerism.

I'll have to agree with that overall assessment. I'm looking forward to a good game at DKR Memorial Stadium.

 

[campies]

Wow!!! Now thats the type of overly-scrutinized, compartive analysis I was hoping for when I made that post! Now we're back on track.

So yes, as I said, part of that statement was viewed as a jumpstart to an otherwise stagnant game thread, and I thought that'd stir the pot a little, but nonetheless, there is a lot of validity to my statement.

Obviously there are guys like Peterson, Slanton, and even Pittman that could make the case as the nation's most productive or "best" running back. Obviously, they have the stats to back that up. However, I think the point I was actually trying to make was that Jamaal Charles could be the nation's most TALENTED running back as of today, and thats what makes him best. Reggie Bush as a freshman or sophmore certainly wasn't the nation's "best" quote/unquote running back, but he certainly could have made a case as the most talented. Aside from the strength he added over the last year or whatever, he pretty much had all the speed and instincts from the beginning that made him so great, so I consider him to be the "best" as far as talent goes, even in his first years.

Same thing with Jamaal. I dont think there's a running back in the country today that can match his talent as a pure running back. Due to some nagging injuries and freshman growing pains (albeit few), we didn't really get to see all he can bring to the table, but we did get to see some of it. That was enough for many to recognize his abilities, and I hope we really get to see him breakout this coming year in line with his talent, and I certainly understand there will be growing pains to adjust to without Vince back with him. Nonetheless I expect it.

As far as Erik Haw is concerned, lets equally pull back on the blind homerism. I'm sure he's fast, and I'm sure he's big, but could it be that this suggested 4.28 is the same 40 gun used to clock AJ Hawk at 4.47, and Bobby Carpenter at 4.5? I know those guys all have speed, but thats flirting with Virginia Tech optimism! Put it this way: I've never seen Erik Haw run, as I dont believe he's ever played, but either way, line up he and Jamaal to your choice of 40, 60, or 100 yards, whatever, and I'll take Jamaal every day of the week, as I'm sure most college football/track scouts would as well. Whatever thats worth. Hookem.

 

[scarletngrey11]

As far as Erik Haw is concerned, lets equally pull back on the blind homerism. I'm sure he's fast, and I'm sure he's big, but could it be that this suggested 4.28 is the same 40 gun used to clock AJ Hawk at 4.47, and Bobby Carpenter at 4.5? I know those guys all have speed, but thats flirting with Virginia Tech optimism! Put it this way: I've never seen Erik Haw run, as I dont believe he's ever played, but either way, line up he and Jamaal to your choice of 40, 60, or 100 yards, whatever, and I'll take Jamaal every day of the week, as I'm sure most college football/track scouts would as well. Whatever thats worth. Hookem.

First of all, welcome to BP.

Secondly, if you've never seen Haw run then isnt that blind homerism as well suggesting that Charles is faster? Im not saying he isnt, he very well could be, but thats blind homerism also.

As for the Hawk sub 4.5's, ask a few of the running backs we played last year, they are quoted as saying that he really does run a 4.4, and they can tell.

 

[jwinslow]

1) he wasn't suggesting that haw is better, merely that measurables are fun to look at but rarely tell the whole story. Maurice Clarett was never fast though was able to dominate as a RB.

2) as for the comment about hawk, you do realize his 3.96/3.97 shuttle times scorched all but one DB and one WR (at the combine), right?

 

[scarletngrey11]

Erik Haw would most likely have been a bigger part of our offense if he didnt get into trouble.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

As far as Erik Haw is concerned, lets equally pull back on the blind homerism. I'm sure he's fast, and I'm sure he's big, but could it be that this suggested 4.28 is the same 40 gun used to clock AJ Hawk at 4.47, and Bobby Carpenter at 4.5? I know those guys all have speed, but thats flirting with Virginia Tech optimism! Put it this way: I've never seen Erik Haw run, as I dont believe he's ever played, but either way, line up he and Jamaal to your choice of 40, 60, or 100 yards, whatever, and I'll take Jamaal every day of the week, as I'm sure most college football/track scouts would as well. Whatever thats worth. Hookem.

No homerism on my part on Haw...I was simply reporting his 40 time. By the way, I was wrong on his reported 40 time...it wasn't 4.28, but 4.21 (albeit obviously handtimed). Haw does have a 10.96 100m time in high school (in 2003, electronically timed). I could argue that even if Haw is a split-second slower, his 20 pound weight advatange more than makes up for that. But, as we've seen in the past with other elite running backs, measureables (height, weight, speed, etc.) mean squat when it comes to playing the position. Charles will be a good one, but he's not the very best RB in the country at this time.

 

[campies]

Its not blind homerism; its an educated guess about what I believe is an exaggerated claim. I know for a fact that Jamaal Charles has the kind of speed I'm referring to, not because I'm a Texas fan, or like big numbers, but because he has documented them as a UT track athlete, among other places. Secondly, I'm skeptical of Haw's times because there are very few people at ANY level as you know that are capable of sub 4.3 times in the 40, and I just dont believe I guy with that kind of size and speed, if legitimate, would not find a way onto the field at anything better than 3rd string running back. I understand he may be exceptionally quick but extremely raw at running back, and thats part of what keeps him back at this point, but I really dont believe he's 4.3 quick. I've seen Jamaal play, I've seen Jamaal run, and he has the track, as well as 40, times to back it up as one of the fastest in the college game, so thats why I take him in a race, homerism or not.

 

[jwinslow]

good for charles... his 40 time is not what impresses me, its his vision, quickness and toughness. Track speed is just message board fodder.

Or do you put much stock in the fact that Anthony Gonzalez is reportedly faster than Ted Ginn on a track?

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Running backs aren't made or broken by straight ahead speed. We're getting off track here. You base your claim to Charles' abilities based almost exclusively on his track speed (implying he's one of the fastest, if not the fastest, RB in the country). I've showed you a 3rd string RB very close to being as fast, if not actually faster, than Charles. There's also track speed and football speed. Case in point would be Ginn. There are a few WRs out there whose 40 times would rival, if not beat Ginn's...but do you think anyone can outrun Teddy on the football field, especially once he's in top gear? There's a clip in the 2004 Game Clips forum in the Michigan State game thread where Ginn just destroys a MSU DB with a reported 4.3 40 for the game winning TD. Still, we can't call Ginn the best WR in the country because he's the fastest on the field...there's more to being a WR than flat out speed, and the same holds true for RBs.

 

[High Lonesome]

regardless of where Jamaal stands in the rankings for the nations best runnin backs, his catch out of the backfield vs. the bucks and his 80yrd jaunt up the middle vs. ok were two of my favorite plays of the regular season

 

[xrayrandy]

I've showed you a 3rd string RB very close to being as fast, if not actually faster, than Charles.

The 4.21 40 and 10.96 FAT 100m do not add up. Someone with that 40 time should run around a 10.3 FAT 100m. As an example, during the past year Huff has ran a 4.34 40 (FAT Combine timing method), a 6.82 FAT 60m, and a 10.48 FAT 100m. While it is certainly true that some runners will have faster starts, or have a faster top end speed, the relationship between events should be similar to Huff's times. Someone who runs a 10.96 FAT 100m is usually a 4.45 to 4.5 40 guy unless they have absolutely no stamina.

 

[jwinslow]

hooray that charles is fast. As stated by many, straight ahead speed is far down the list for RBs. Quickness, vision and toughness/strength are much more important, which is why guys like Clarett, M Bush and L White can dominate.

We're getting off track. Charles is quite fast, and arguing how many fractions of a second faster he is will probably get us nowhere.

If we're trying to debate how well JC stacks up nationally, let's get back to this post. This is precisely why he is not close to being the nation's best back. He has a ton of talent and a huge upside, but he's got a long way to go to reach AD's galaxy.

Well, let's look at some of the teams against which he gained that yardage:

La-Lafayette (#91 rush defense): 135 yards
Rice (#109 rush defense): 189 yards

He got way over 1/3 of his yards (324 out of 878) against just two teams. He gained only 26 yards on 10 carries against us, 20 yards on seven carries against Oklahoma State, and only 10 yards on five carries against A&M...not overly impressive.

Let's look at Antonio Pittman. He's only a year older and despite being smaller and slower than Charles (and behind arguably a lesser OL), he gained far more yardage and never averaged under 3.2 ypc against any opponent (he even gained 3.9 ypc at Penn State despite their stuffing the line and playing in a rainstorm). Charles averaged under 2.9 ypc in at least three games.

As for Charles' measureables, they mean squat. Our 3rd string RB (Eric Haw) is faster (4.28 40) and significantly bigger (6'1", 215)...note that he's our 3rd string RB.

No doubt that Charles has a huge upside, but to call him the best RB in the country as a sophomore when he really hasn't done all that much is nothing more than blind homerism.

 

[Tlangs]

I have an idea...

lets have Xray run a 4.3-40 and JWins run a 4.4-40. I guarentee the Jwins will be close enough to tackle him. Hence the idea of vision, power, quickness, etc being more important than just raw speed.

 

[xrayrandy]

With my bad back, I might run a 4.3 10 today.

I agree with the majority of the posters that it is way premature to be calling Charles the best runningback in the country. We need to see what he can do during a season when he is not a freshman and not suffering from injuries the last 8 games.