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Cleveland Browns (2009 Season)

Grossi is an idiot...if you listen to his weekly podcasts he has as much insight on football and the Browns as a 7 year old. Terry Pluto does a great job of covering the Browns in a logical, insightful manner. I think his article about why the Browns should keep Mangini is spot on. I have bashed the man plenty of times here but I think he deserves at least one more year to see if what he is doing will work and if this years draft can deliver some playmakers to help the team start moving forward.

Unfortunately, I think the writing is on the wall, however when Parcells got rid of Cam Cameron after one year in Miami it was justified because the team was not playing better and gave up. This team has not done that and has played better each week which I think is especially telling due to all of the adversity they have been overcoming due to the number of injuries they have experienced.
 
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BuckNut65;1624516; said:
This team has not done that and has played better each week which I think is especially telling due to all of the adversity they have been overcoming due to the number of injuries they have experienced.
I don't know if the guys are playing better because of Mangini or the fact that they are just tired of losing and really won a game against a very injury ridden Pittsburgh team and beating Kansas City is nothing to shout about especially when they gave up 34 points to the powerhouse Chiefs.

You also mentioned injuries. I have no idea why he was playing St. Clair at RT when Pork Chop came in along with Fraley and they did a much better job on the right side then St. Clair did all season. I guess the injury to Lewis also helped with Harrison and Cribbs picking up that slack to say the least. One of our OLB's getting injured was a plus because they went and picked up Roth and moved Barton to the inside. Let's try and remember that most of these guys that were playing that got injured was almost a Godsend because their replacements have played much better. Also, how many of his New York Jets that he has brought in as really help this team. Not many IMO
 
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I am staunchly in the bring back Mangini camp. Realistically, I don't know how anyone can think that any other coach would have been able to have much more success with this team.

Last years team was 4-12. We are 3-11 right now, with significantly less talent.

On offense:
Traded Winslow for draft picks.
Traded Edwards for Stuckey, Trusnick, and draft picks.

That's our two biggest threats on offense gone - replaced with Chanci Stuckey.

On defense:
Lost Shaun Rodgers to injury.
Lost D'Qwell Jackson to injury.
Lost Brodney Poole to injury.
Lost Eric Barton to injury.
Lost Sean Jones to free agency.

We've even lost our punter.

Rodgers, Jackson and Poole were our 3 best defensive players this year by a longshot. This defense was short on talent and big on heart to begin with. Losing those guys should have been a death sentence, yet they keep fighting to the point that we are actually winning some games now.

Yes, Matt Roth was a great addition. But I think Mangini deserves some credit as the guy who went out and got him.

This season I thought the Browns had the potential to win up to 7 games: Detroit, KC, Oakland, Buffalo, Denver, and Cinci x2. That was the max. So I thought 4-5 wins would be realistic. As it turned out, Denver and Cinci were better than I thought they would be (though we played Cinci tough both times, the first meeting especially).

After the Edwards trade, I thought 1-15 was looking extremely likely. Suddenly our offense featured not a single player that opposing defenses had to key on. Our offense failed to gain over 200 total yards in each of the 5 games following the trade, and it looked much of the time like they had no business being on a professional football field.

But, somehow, ever since the bye week this team has been getting better. Even though we are only 2-4 in that span, watching the Browns is no longer the brutal ritual I put myself through during the first 8 weeks of the season. Suddenly, watching the Browns is exciting again. Even in losing, we look like a pro team. We are competitive. And I have to say, even though we were 0-4 after the bye, I was happy. I still thought we would go 1-15 (maybe 2-14), but I was happy that I could watch my football team without being thoroughly embarrassed. But beating the Steelers was huge. I don't care if they have been struggling, we beat the Steelers. The same Steelers team that gained 537 yards this week, that still might make the playoffs, that we haven't beaten in years. Beating the Chiefs was just gravy, and if we can win one more game, we are right where I thought we'd be prior to the season (not knowing how much talent we were going to lost throughout the season).

Has Mangini been perfect? Of course not. I would have preferred that wasn't so coy about who was going to start the season. And I think a $2000 fine for not paying for a bottle of water is excessive. And though I agree with the way he has managed the QB's in season, I can certainly understand the arguments of those who were upset with it.

But it is undeniable that this team is light years better than it was earlier this season, despite the loss of Edward's talents and the myriad injuries they have been plagued with. Moreover, this team hasn't quit, especially the defense (and I do give Ryan a lot of credit for that). Every down, you know they are significantly less talented than the offense, yet I haven't seen a Brown's defense play with this kind of passion since 2002. The players seem to love playing for this guy and it shows in how hard they play. That's something Holmgren should not take lightly.

I have always loved the Browns, but this year is first time in a long while that I can say I love this team.
 
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LitlBuck;1624538; said:
I don't know if the guys are playing better because of Mangini or the fact that they are just tired of losing and really won a game against a very injury ridden Pittsburgh team and beating Kansas City is nothing to shout about especially when they gave up 34 points to the powerhouse Chiefs.

I agree, I don't know if they are playing better because of Mangini but they are playing better. One thing that is undeniable is that this team does not make the mental mistakes and penalties that we saw constantly under Crennel. They lost everyone right up the gut on their defense...Rogers, Jackson and Pool and they have played better. They have a guy in Mike Furrey who was signed as a FA to play WR and is starting at Safety and a special teamer in Jason Trusnik playing LB and they have played better.

That's the key here. You are always going to lose players in the NFL due to injury and some of these may be key people, however if you have intelligent players that play hard you can fill in those gaps when they arise. This is what the Pats do and it has worked. It is proven.

That being said I have no idea whether Mangini is the right guy. He needs help with player personnel and hopefully Holmgren can put together a solid department there. The question we need to ask ourselves is if Mangini had talent could he coach them to win consistently?

He has used up a lot of his chips this year and I don't know if he has enough left to get back in the game but if they keep improving over the next couple of weeks he probably deserves another year. A month ago I would have said get his ass out the door but I have to admit that he is making me think twice about it.
 
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LitlBuck;1624538; said:
I don't know if the guys are playing better because of Mangini or the fact that they are just tired of losing and really won a game against a very injury ridden Pittsburgh team and beating Kansas City is nothing to shout about especially when they gave up 34 points to the powerhouse Chiefs.

Hey it was their first win against PIttsburgh since God knows when.....I'll take it :wink:

Sure they didn't beat them at full strength and certainly beating KC isn't great either, but given where this team was say, week 4, I'll take it.

they have 11 draft picks next year as well as an uncapped year. They can improve the roster and not break the bank and let all of the big spenders take the chances. This team is likely 3 years away at the least however.
 
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Personally, I don't care if Mangina stays or goes. Two weeks ago everybody was ready to lynch him. What has happened since? Beat a bad Pukesburgh team and an even worse KC team. Granted, he deserves some credit for getting the team through those games, but it doesn't wipe the slate clean after all the other gaffes. If there's a better coach available (I don't know that there will be), then I have no problem with them shitcanning him. I also have no problem with them giving him some more time.
 
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Didn't Gruden work under Holmgren in Green Bay? Just wondering what you guys think if the Browns hire him as an Offensive Coordinator or Asst. Head Coach. I think I remember seeing on MNF some pics of Gruden as a little kid in a Browns helmet and jersey. He's a Cleveland area guy, I think... Any thoughts?
 
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TS10HTW;1624647; said:
Didn't Gruden work under Holmgren in Green Bay? Just wondering what you guys think if the Browns hire him as an Offensive Coordinator or Asst. Head Coach. I think I remember seeing on MNF some pics of Gruden as a little kid in a Browns helmet and jersey. He's a Cleveland area guy, I think... Any thoughts?

It won't be next year.
 
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TS10HTW;1624647; said:
Didn't Gruden work under Holmgren in Green Bay? Just wondering what you guys think if the Browns hire him as an Offensive Coordinator or Asst. Head Coach. I think I remember seeing on MNF some pics of Gruden as a little kid in a Browns helmet and jersey. He's a Cleveland area guy, I think... Any thoughts?

Yeah he worked under Holmgren in GB. Holmgren hired/discovered Gruden while working as the OC for SF in '90, so they go back. I'd love to have Gruden in Cleveland he's a proven winner, but he just signed that extension to remain on MNF which probably has a big buyout. It's an interesting thought and one that hasn't really been explored all that much by the mothership's 24 hour beat and dead horse coverage. I think getting someone in there that Holmgren trusts would do wonders for him as GM. If you remember Holmgren didn't exactly set the world on fire as GM of the Seahawks. I'd like to see someone like Gruden as the head coach so they could work together on personnal decisions.
 
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I think getting someone in there that Holmgren trusts would do wonders for him as GM. If you remember Holmgren didn't exactly set the world on fire as GM of the Seahawks. I'd like to see someone like Gruden as the head coach so they could work together on personnal decisions
I don't think it has been set in stone that Holmgren will be the GM. I guess he and Lerner are probably the only two guys who know if he is going to make the personnel decisions. I would rather have him bring in a GM to work with a coach in making the personnel decisions. I am not sure about Gruden. I can't remember what happened down in Tampa Bay but it was not pretty.
 
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willsonphilips;1625082; said:
Yeah he worked under Holmgren in GB. Holmgren hired/discovered Gruden while working as the OC for SF in '90, so they go back. I'd love to have Gruden in Cleveland he's a proven winner, but he just signed that extension to remain on MNF which probably has a big buyout. It's an interesting thought and one that hasn't really been explored all that much by the mothership's 24 hour beat and dead horse coverage. I think getting someone in there that Holmgren trusts would do wonders for him as GM. If you remember Holmgren didn't exactly set the world on fire as GM of the Seahawks. I'd like to see someone like Gruden as the head coach so they could work together on personnal decisions.
Holmgren wasn't successful, as a coach, while he was the GM of the Seahawks. He did, however, build the Seahawks teams that he eventually led to 4 straight division titles, 5 straight playoff appearances, and a Super Bowl. The Seahawks didn't go back to their rightful place as a bad to mediocre NFL franchise until the team, that he built as GM, started to get old.
 
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FWIW, McShay's current mock draft has the Browns picking #4 and selecting Florida CB Joe Haden. If we're picking there, I wouldn't have a big issue with that pick. Haden looks like a potential shutdown guy and we could use some help at CB. I know some would want to trade down, but I think Haden's a good player and the browns already have plenty of picks. We'll see...

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=70187&draftyear=2011&genpos=CB

Holmgren's a well known offensive guy, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them go in that direction either if somebody shoots up the boards. Right now, I have a hard time seeing somebody worthy of that high of a pick. Had Oklahoma's TE Gresham not been hurt, he was in line to be a very high pick. Maybe he wows folks with his workouts. Other than that, this draft is woefully bad in the skill position department.

Suh #1, Gerald McCoy #2 & Berry #3.
 
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Its defense first for the Browns because I believe even Holmgren will realize there's not an offensive player in this years draft worthy of a top 5 pick (maybe)

Its Suh or Berry. Doesn't bother me either way. I feel we'll most likely land Berry. And Haden might be available either late 1st or early 2nd. If he's there that early in the 2nd I say grab him immediately. We can then put our priority on RB and ILB and look the other possibilities to address RT and QB.
 
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NFBuck;1625392; said:
FWIW, McShay's current mock draft has the Browns picking #4 and selecting Florida CB Joe Haden. If we're picking there, I wouldn't have a big issue with that pick. Haden looks like a potential shutdown guy and we could use some help at CB. I know some would want to trade down, but I think Haden's a good player and the browns already have plenty of picks. We'll see...

Joe Haden?|?Florida,?CB?:?2011 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

Holmgren's a well known offensive guy, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them go in that direction either if somebody shoots up the boards. Right now, I have a hard time seeing somebody worthy of that high of a pick. Had Oklahoma's TE Gresham not been hurt, he was in line to be a very high pick. Maybe he wows folks with his workouts. Other than that, this draft is woefully bad in the skill position department.

Suh #1, Gerald McCoy #2 & Berry #3.
Haden would be a safe pick but if Holmgren goes offense the only guys I could see going that high would be a stud RT. Like you said, there are not many skilled players worthy of that pick and perhaps sliding down would be good but that's not always easy.

Do you know what the status is of the current QB of the Seahawks--Hassleback:huh: UFA. I have heard some chatter about Holmgren might want to bring him in.
 
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