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Chris Holtmann (ex-tOSU Bball coach, HC at DePaul)

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DZ83CK said:
March is what really moves the meter in college basketball. B1G titles matter, and Beilein had 2 BTT titles also you ignored, but the better measure is two Final Fours and an Elite 8, plus two more Sweet 16s in 12 years. This is even after taking over a moribund program. UM historically absolutely does not make 5 Sweet 16s in 12 years on average. OSU hasn't made the Sweet 16 at all the last 9 years. Plus, Beilein gets partial credit for last season as he landed a significant amount of their leading players, including the star Wagner. He had some down years, which happen when you're doing it right and striving for peaks and not just trying to maintain "good" performance. Beilein absolutely disproves the "football school" baloney.
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Michigan football is not within miles of OSU football as a religion. Bringing it up as though the priorities are similar is a massive stretch.

I assume we're glossing over the majority of UM fans who wanted him fired in the first 5 years, because they weren't anywhere near msu or OSU.

I'm not claiming chris is beyond rebuke. I'm just rebuking this notion that OSU is underachieving. They're punching right at their weight class

Thad was an aberration, and if the actual blue blood from Bloomington was not broken, he probably could not have done that either.
 
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jwinslow said:
Michigan football is not within miles of OSU football as a religion.

I assume we're glossing over the majority of UM fans who wanted him fired in the first 5 years, because they weren't anywhere near msu or OSU.

I'm not claiming chris is beyond rebuke. I'm just rebuking this notion that OSU is underachieving. They're punching right at their weight class

Thad was an aberration, and if the actual blue blood from Bloomington was not broken, he probably could not have done that either.
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I don't think you have any prayer of proving a majority of UM fans wanted Beilein out after 5 years, but I'm sure there are a few folks here who will keep lapping up your every word. Holt needs to adjust his recruiting plans, focus more on high end talent and avoid getting so many role players. Beilein figured it out, and he wasn't beating the cheaters for recruits. It can be done, but avoiding the "low floor" year isn't how it happens. I want to see the program actually go somewhere in March, and right now I am not seeing any real indication of when it is going to happen.
 
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DZ83CK said:
I don't think you have any prayer of proving a majority of UM fans wanted Beilein out after 5 years, but I'm sure there are a few folks here who will keep lapping up your every word. lt needs to adjust his recruiting plans, focus more on high end talent and avoid getting so many role players. Beilein figured it out, and he wasn't beating the cheaters for recruits. It can be done, but avoiding the "low floor" year isn't how it happens. I want to see the program actually go somewhere in March, and right now I am not seeing any real indication of when it is going to happen.
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At best, their fanbase just resigned themselves that this was about as good as they could do against the cheaters (and not in the "Jim is doing a good job, maybe we're not that special" way that they did with football). He was massively criticized and not well respected until he reached his first final four. I spent far too much time on their boards back in those days.

Everyone wants to see Chris do better in March, and recruiting better would go a long way (the solid but not great transfers are harder a universally loved approach). There's just a massive disagreement about the birthright of a football school in a sport that the fanbase mostly ignores. It's not the capacity or need to improve that's offbase, it's the expectation.

OSU football has better photo coverage on the sidelines than many pro teams. The arrival at fall camp is an extravaganza.

There are countless sites devoted to OSU recruiting and football. There has never been anything resembling that for basketball, even at the height of the thad 5. We had to get insight from anonymous users from other circles (like exclusiveclothes).

I'll let you get back to worrying about who is liking which posts.
 
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Since I've been a BBall fan, we've typically recruited 70+% of our talent from OH. The other 30% generally also mostly regional (IL and, for a short Thad time, IN).
I don't see the depth of OH talent in the last few. I also don't see trajectory-changing talent.

Are we missing on the OH talent - or is the talent not there?

I see the same issue with Illinois - used to be, their team would be made up 80% from Chicago or surrounding areas. Now, they're from all over.
 
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jwinslow said:
At best, their fanbase just resigned themselves that this was about as good as they could do against the cheaters (and not in the "Jim is doing a good job, maybe we're not that special" way that they did with football). He was massively criticized and not well respected until he reached his first final four. I spent far too much time on their boards back in those days.

Everyone wants to see Chris do better in March, and recruiting better would go a long way (the solid but not great transfers are harder a universally loved approach). There's just a massive disagreement about the birthright of a football school in a sport that the fanbase mostly ignores. It's not the capacity or need to improve that's offbase, it's the expectation.

OSU football has better photo coverage on the sidelines than many pro teams. The arrival at fall camp is an extravaganza.

There are countless sites devoted to OSU recruiting and football. There has never been anything resembling that for basketball, even at the height of the thad 5. We had to get insight from anonymous users from other circles (like exclusiveclothes).

I'll let you get back to worrying about who is liking which posts.
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Beilein's fifth year they won a share of the Big Ten regular season title, a height their program hadn't reached in a long time. I call BS to your characterization of UM fans commonly claiming he was an inadequate coach at that time. I don't doubt there were a couple keyboard warriors full of angst but I don't buy for one second that a majority of their fans legitimately were against him after that, especially with a good recruiting class coming in.

Holt needs this next class to be a hit, and he needs to get over the hump next year. I don't think you can go 23-10 without winning anything or going to the Sweet 16+ every year and keep the fans happy forever. At some point you need to match the high salary with high results.
 
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DZ83CK said:
Beilein's fifth year they won a share of the Big Ten regular season title, a height their program hadn't reached in a long time. I call BS to your characterization of UM fans commonly claiming he was an inadequate coach at that time. I don't doubt there were a couple keyboard warriors full of angst but I don't buy for one second that a majority of their fans legitimately were against him after that, especially with a good recruiting class coming in.
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Well if you don't buy it, surely it didn't happen.

2007 - 10-22
2008 - Some major upsets of top-5 teams, finished 7th in league, first tourney berth in 11 years, lost in 2nd round
2009 - 15-17
(ending with getting Evan Turnered)

Heading into 2010, they were a bottom tier B1G team. Sparty and OSU were preseason top 4.

Who was arriving at rival schools?
Local 5-stars Sullinger/Thomas were Thad's 8th/9th of that ranking.
Sparty was bringing in 5-star Ohioan Adrien Payne, 2 classes after Delvon Roe and Korie Lucious. Brandon Dawson and Gary Harris would be coming soon.

Meanwhile Beilein was lining up 3-stars Tim Hardaway and Trey Burke. Surely Darius Harris will be enough to overcome all of that talent at rival schools.

Sims was out of seasons to put it together.
Manny Harris left early to go undrafted.
It was very simple to pick them to finish near the bottom.

Plus it was a really stable time to be a Michigan sports fan in late 2010, what with Josh Groban blaring at the weepy football banquet to end the Rich Rod era.

The results, while full of moral victories, were not great for awhile in 2010-11 until later in the year in B1G play. Lots of close losses to ranked teams, and a rough start to B1G play. They turned it around very nicely, and made it the 2nd round of the big dance, narrowly losing to Duke.

Year 5, darius morris had bolted. They finished 23-8 and tied for the B1G.

Of course, you said March is what matters, and there they got smoked by OSU in the BTT.

And after retraining their entire state to refer to OSU as Ohio, they suffered a massive upset in the opening round by none other than Ohio, led by Thad's former right hand man.


It wasn't until the end of year 5 that confidence was growing in John.
 
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BuckeyeNation27 said:
So is the fire Holtman squad willing to give up 4th/5th place in the B1G to potentially be 10th/11th because you fired a pretty darn good coach in search of some unattainable Duke/Kansas/Kentucky goal?
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If y'all don't want him, we'll gladly take him down here.

Just as long as he doesn't allow things like this to continue to happen:

gaaub.0.0.gif
 
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jwinslow said:
Well if you don't buy it, surely it didn't happen.

2007 - 10-22
2008 - Some major upsets of top-5 teams, finished 7th in league, first tourney berth in 11 years, lost in 2nd round
2009 - 15-17
(ending with getting Evan Turnered)

Heading into 2010, they were a bottom tier B1G team. Sparty and OSU were preseason top 4.

Who was arriving at rival schools?
Local 5-stars Sullinger/Thomas were Thad's 8th/9th of that ranking.
Sparty was bringing in 5-star Ohioan Adrien Payne, 2 classes after Delvon Roe and Korie Lucious. Brandon Dawson and Gary Harris would be coming soon.

Meanwhile Beilein was lining up 3-stars Tim Hardaway and Trey Burke. Surely Darius Harris will be enough to overcome all of that talent at rival schools.

Sims was out of seasons to put it together.
Manny Harris left early to go undrafted.
It was very simple to pick them to finish near the bottom.

Plus it was a really stable time to be a Michigan sports fan in late 2010, what with Josh Groban blaring at the weepy football banquet to end the Rich Rod era.

The results, while full of moral victories, were not great for awhile in 2010-11 until later in the year in B1G play. Lots of close losses to ranked teams, and a rough start to B1G play. They turned it around very nicely, and made it the 2nd round of the big dance, narrowly losing to Duke.

Year 5, darius morris had bolted. They finished 23-8 and tied for the B1G.

Of course, you said March is what matters, and there they got smoked by OSU in the BTT.

And after retraining their entire state to refer to OSU as Ohio, they suffered a massive upset in the opening round by none other than Ohio, led by Thad's former right hand man.


It wasn't until the end of year 5 that confidence was growing in John.
Click to expand...
Are people seriously questioning this?

First 5 years of JB, we laughed and they were ready to fire. Look it up. JFC.
 
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DZ83CK said:
Beilein's fifth year they won a share of the Big Ten regular season title, a height their program hadn't reached in a long time. I call BS to your characterization of UM fans commonly claiming he was an inadequate coach at that time. I don't doubt there were a couple keyboard warriors full of angst but I don't buy for one second that a majority of their fans legitimately were against him after that, especially with a good recruiting class coming in.

Holt needs this next class to be a hit, and he needs to get over the hump next year. I don't think you can go 23-10 without winning anything or going to the Sweet 16+ every year and keep the fans happy forever. At some point you need to match the high salary with high results.
Click to expand...

Who cares about the fans being happy?

He has 1 boss, not 19000. This isn't the NBA nor is Ohio State a basketball blue blood.
 
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