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Buckeye Offensive Coordinator Discussion (merged)

I guess we are just going to disagree here that Jt is not the problem with the offense.

I know if I was a coach I would have say in what is being called. Also the gameplan and calls are a collective group effort like he said they all watch the plays and say what they would like to see and what they think would work.
:osu: Tressel and co. may come up with a pretty good game plan but a good OC, in the box, has a better view. I just think if Tressel had better help, with feedback from upstairs, it would help with making adjustments. I don't mind his style and I don't think they need the "high-powered offense", just one much better...one that better uses the talent they have on the field.
 
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:osu: Tressel and co. may come up with a pretty good game plan but a good OC, in the box, has a better view. I just think if Tressel had better help, with feedback from upstairs, it would help with making adjustments. I don't mind his style and I don't think they need the "high-powered offense", just one much better...one that better uses the talent they have on the field.

If they used the availible talent it would be a high powerd offense.

Its ok to have both, ask the Miami, Nebraska or USC dynasty's.
 
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If they used the availible talent it would be a high powerd offense.

Its ok to have both, ask the Miami, Nebraska or USC dynasty's.
it won't be a high powered offense. it would be a much improved offense, but neither Smith or Zwick are gonna put up huge numbers every game. smith struggles with reading defenses, and using touch. Zwick hasn't throw many good deep balls (in the texas game, he threw a line drive on a fade route to holmes).
 
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This is NOT directed toward any poster...but...

why do we have to pick? Everyone talks about having one or the other. There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't have both with the talent on this team. The offense has been mediocre for several years now and the defense has been stellar. That tells me, or any other rational human being, that there is a problem with offensive schemes and/or coaching...

and then I start wondering how this will affect offensive recruiting....*(but I'll save that for another rant.)

We don't, necessarily, but it is ultra-rare to have top-level, I mean elite, talent in both at the same time. Look at the USC example...some are saying this is the greatest run for a college football team ever (I'm not one of the, but...) they still lost 2x in 2002, shared the title in 2003, and their defense is mediocre this year.

I totally agree with the scheme end...if we bring in an OC, and a scheme gets developed that can be run successfully consistently, then sometimes the offense will be great, sometimes only good, but that will depend on the talent level. So, sometimes you have Bobby Hoying, sometimes you have Greg Frey, and sometimes you have Steve Bellisari.....sometimes you have Eddie George, sometimes it's Carlos Snow, and sometimes Lydell Ross...etc. If a scheme was in place that everyone believed in, then the true measure of the greatness of the offense would be limited only by the talent available...I don't think anyone would argue that this is the case currently.

I don't know how the offensive talent ranks this year...I think some people might overestimate it a bit, but right now, there's no way to know, because talent isn't the rate-limiting step of the offense. It needs to be, if possible, and then maybe the sky is the limit...who knows?
 
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I now feel that our expectations for this team were too high, watching the game on saturday, it just seemed like a lot of our players were going through the motions and that pissed me off severely, I was a supporter of Smith, but he has got to do a better job of recognizing mismatches, Ginn had PSU's #7 beat a few times and it's like he was set on getting 1 reciever the ball.
And is it just me or did Troy seem slower than usual?
 
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My take...

First of all, we played Texas Tech and their high powered offense and they did NOTHING until the third stringers were in. Quit telling me how great TT is, they aren't. Great defense ALWAYS trumps great offense. It is much easier to make mistakes that will LOSE you a game on offense than on defense. Great Defense is the constant, period. Let me know when TT goes on a 19 game win streak with that offense.

Second, if we want to start passing the ball around 60 times a game, forget about having a GREAT defense. You'll only have a TIRED defense. That kind of game plan extends the game and puts the defense out there for way too many plays. A great running game to control the clock and the ability to hit a big play once in a while is what we need, not "basketball on grass". Christ, Nebraska scored in the 70's twice, the 60's twice, the 50's twice and never less than 35 running the option in '95!! Are we saying 2005 is light years away from 1995? No chance...There is nothing new in a game that's been played for 100 years, only trends and fads. Get in the I and pound them until they cry. Then hit them with the play action. That's the recipe for success...

Third, when the fucking snow starts to fall (yes I hate snow :biggrin: ) and the "Wind is blowing off the banks of the Olentangy", you want to rely on passing the ball? Those high powered Buckeye offenses under Cooper did not get it done when the weather came. 72-0 against Pitt or Rice in August is meaningless when you lose to scUM 28-0 or 13-9 or 20-14. You win championships in November and you do it running the ball and playing defense! Ask scUM about the 1990's.

Fourth, when is USC's offense going to go in the tank? They lost their all-world OC and it hasn't hurt them AT ALL. And where is all the Titan's offense? You really believe this is about having or not having an OC? If I've got Bush, Leinart and White, I could call the damn plays. It is completely over rated as to the cause of our problems.

Fifth, we've changed offenses, QB's, running backs, etc, etc. the last two years. All this change is the problem. Find something and stick with it. You need to put the time in to get good at one thing or you will just continue to be mediocre at everything. Smith hasn't even played the equivalent of a full season yet...

Sixth, the combined record for the 8 teams to which we've lost since the Nat'l Championship is 60-25. Each team was/will be bowl eligible at the end of the year. Only two of those losses have come at home. We have lost by an avg. total of 10.125 points and only 7.85 points if you exclude the Iowa debacle. These are the totals, and we weren't a great team last year, I'll take it. This is hardly a reason for a wholesale change in philosophy.

And lastly, Tressel's philosophy is the way to win championships instead of scoring titles. People love to discuss all these offensive stats and yet the only stat that has ever meant anything is 5 Nat'l Championships. And if your sick of hearing that stat, too bad. That's the only one that anybody will ever remember...
 
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Can someone get Saw a great post award for that post!!!! I think he just hit the nail on the head


If they used the availible talent it would be a high powerd offense.

Its ok to have both, ask the Miami, Nebraska or USC dynasty's.

We will never have a high-powered offense. No matter what happens, unless we fire Tressel(no I am not saying to do this).

Our goal as fans should be that we want to see an effecient offense.

I don't who on here is a steelers fan, but I like the way they play. Their offense is very effecient. They are able to score by running the ball very well and passing when need be.
 
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Yeah, and they've finished 9-5, 8-5, and 8-4 under their high-powered offense. They can't rely on out-gunning their opponents every game. If the saying "The best defense is a good offense" were true, then they should be on a 30-something game win streak. But when you lose games 51-48, 51-49, and 43-40 like they have over the past few seasons, you can clearly see that's not the case.
i think that both you and BKB have taken my post out of context. in NO WAY was i implying that i want Ohio State to be Texas Tech... what i AM saying is that just because you have a great defense doesn't mean that your offense has to suck... we have been in two situations this season where we absolutely HAD to score late... we failed miserably each time... now, my point is that maybe if there had been the same emphasis on an excellent O as there was on D and ST, we wouldn't have been in that undesireable position in the first place... does that make sense? if we turned those FGs into TDs, we wouldn't be having this conversation...

i'm not for sacrificing superior D in order to get more O... what i AM asking for is that the same emphasis be placed on having an outstanding offense as there is on having a devastating defense and superior special teams...

read the Presser again: Tressel clearly stated that his gameplan called for a huge play on ST... well, that didn't happen... so now what? your O, which by your own admission you merely 'hopes will contribute' suddenly has all this extra pressure on it to succeed... well, maybe if you had emphasised excellence on O as much as you emphasised excellence in the other two facets of the game, the need for a big ST play would not be so great?

it's time to take some of the pressure off... by scoring more-- which IS possible-- you take pressure off the D, which can play fast and loose; you take pressure off the ST, which can relax and not have to attempt a 50 yard FG with the clock running down; and you take pressure off the O late in the game because you don't need to drive 90 yards with 1 timeout just to tie the game...

once again: it IS possible to have a great offense AND a great defense-- they are not mutually exclusive.

and i MUST point out that in the list that i read on BN of the scoring O of the last 25 MNCs, Ohio State '02 was DEAD LAST on that list... of course all those other teams had great offenses... but just because your D only allows 13 points per game, doesn't mean that you only need to try to score 14... you need to try to score as much as you can...

when Tressel first arrived, he said that the goals on O were 200 yards rushing, 250 yards passing and 40 points per game... suddenly, 5 years later, instead of 40 points per game, the goal is 24... come on. quit wasting the talent, and stop letting inferior teams hang around because you don't feel that it's neccessary to score a lot of points. blast 'em with 3 TDs in the first 10 minutes of the game, and it's all over...

look, i realize that being in close games early gets you ready for the big tests late, but there has to be a happy medium... the longer you let the opponent hang around, the smaller the margin for error becomes... with each passing moment, the opponent gains confidence, and the ability to rebound from a mistake is diminished...

it's time for a fundamental change of philosophy on Offense... the D is fine. the ST is fine. the O needs a MAJOR overhaul... it's time for Tressel to stop being a best friend and a brother, and start being a result-conscious CEO... demand better results, or cut the dead weight... Daniels needs to go: the QBs have largely underacheived for the last 5 years. Bollman needs to go: the O-line, which contains starting NFL talent, consistantly underachieves. we've had nearly 5 years now. the results are in, and the grades are unacceptable... it's time to find someone else. promote Peterson to the O-line coach, and go get the OC from Bowling Green... then get the QB coach from Marshall or Toledo...it's a damn shame that the MAC produces better QBs than a top 5 all time team, but that can be changed if only the staff desires to make it happen...
 
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I'm a little late jumping into the fray here so bear with me...

I, along with many others, were confused and disappointed in Tressel's "goal" of scoring only 24 points a game. But after a while I got to thinking: What is their record when they score 24 or more points under Tressel? Here's the results...

2001: 7-2
W Akron, 28-14
W at Indiana, 27-14
W No. 14 Northwestern, 38-20
W San Diego State, 27-12
L at Penn State, 29-27
W at Minnesota, 31-28
W No. 24 Purdue, 35-9
W at No.11 Michigan, 26-20
L South Carolina, 31-28

2002: 8-0
W Texas Tech, 45-21
W Kent State, 51-17
W No. 10 Washington State, 26-7
W Indiana, 45-17
W at Northwestern, 27-16
W San Jose State, 50-7
W No. 23 Minnesota, 34-3
W No. 1 Miami (Fla.), 31-24 (2OT)

2003: 6-0
W No. 17 Washington, 28-9
W No. 24 North Carolina State, 44-38 (3OT)
W Bowling Green, 24-17
W at Indiana, 35-6
W No. 14 Michigan St, 33-23
W No. 8 Kansas State, 35-28

2004: 6-1
W Cincinnati, 27-6
W Marshall, 24-21
L at Northwestern, 33-27 (OT)
W Indiana, 30-7
W at Michigan State, 32-19
W Michigan, 37-21
W Oklahoma State, 33-7

2005: 3-0
W Miami, 34-14
W SD State, 27-6
W Iowa, 31-6

Total Record: 30-3 for 90.9% win percentage with two of those loses coming his first year and the other one in OT. Also, in those games where the offense scores 24 or more points the defense gives up 24 or more points in 7 games with 3 coming in Tressel's first year and 3 of the other 4 being overtime games...

2001 (1-2)
L at Penn State, 29-27
W at Minnesota, 31-28
L South Carolina, 31-28

2002 (1-0)
W No. 1 Miami (Fla.), 31-24 (2OT)

2003 (2-0)
W No. 24 North Carolina State, 44-38 (3OT)
W No. 8 Kansas State, 35-28

2004 (0-1)
L at Northwestern, 33-27 (OT)

From this data it seems that 24 points is actually a pretty reasonable measuring stick.
 
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I haven't read every post, but I did read Saw's post and I agree with everything that he said, to a point. I'd like to add the following:

Coach Tressel's philosophy is mistake free opportunistic offense, out of this world special teams, and out of this world defense. This season Ohio State has 1/3 of what is needed for this philosophy to be successful.

The offense is not mistake free (look at the costly turnovers this season in both losses and the potentially costly TO's in the Iowa game) and the offense is not opportunistic in that it doesn't take advantage of what the stellar defense gives it in field position.

The special teams this season is not a difference maker. The return games are below average and Huston, while a great kicker, has not shown to be the weapon that a Coach Tressel led team needs him to be. Punting has been good, but it's never a good sign when you are seeing a lot of your punter.

Will this philosophy win a lot of games? Absolutely, but at what cost? My point is that this type of philosophy does not allow any room for error and, in turn, puts an enormous amount of pressure on the entire team. And when two out of the three elements needed for the philosophy to work are missing, the pressure goes up even more on the defense. That type of pressure tends to wear on people, particularly 18-23 year old people. At some point the defense is going to look at the offense and start asking some tough questions. The kind of questions that can put a deep crack in a team.

Coach Tressel owes it to the team and particularly to the defense to make any adjustments that are necessary regardless of egos, feelings, etc, that will take advantage of the talent on this offense. If we see the same thing on Saturday, then we can only assume that he is unwilling to change no matter what the results are. This team is clsoe to dead last in just about every offensive category, so something isn't working.
 
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One point that seems to be overlooked is that we dominated Iowa with Tresselball. In fact it was more conservative than the previous game vs. SDSU. The difference was we executed. Smith read the defense. The OL actually blocked. Smith followed his blockers on QB draws. Pittman actually got the ball a lot.

I agree JT's sphincter can become awfully tight, but look at the difference between SDSU & Iowa. The playcalling was pretty similar, if not less inventive, vs. Iowa, against a much better defense. But the players executed, and we flat out dominated the game. If JT's players knew how to hold onto the ball, we would have hung half a hundred on those guys.

So look at PSU and ask yourself, if our QB would have seen any of the wide open WRs, if Hamby would have caught passes, if we would have stopped giving up tons of sacks/hurries that resulted in broken plays... what would have been the result?

We lost by a TD, it's not much of a stretch to think we could have won that game.

I agree that our offense might be better under a better team. I think the playcalling needs help. But the more I reflect on what transpired in that game, and other tresselball games, we would have won that game if anyone would have bothered executing. The WRs aren't to blame cuz they never saw the ball.

Actually, the real problem is we didn't leave Conroy in there :) He was ecstatic to get in the game (great writeup on the ozone), and didn't give up a sack, and we walked all the way down for a TD. Keep him in and we score every drive :tongue2:
 
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