Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[kujirakira]

i just can't agree. Bad cultural mix with oil barons at both schools quite willing to do whatever meets their needs to the detriment of the conference- I can all but guarantee the first demand would be to play theCCG at Jerrys place. It creates tremendous travel distances for non-revenue sports and does not do one damn thing to promote the Northeast/Midwest footprint - no one in Texas is going to do squat about securing a CFPS site north of Dallas.

The West Division needs help no matter how you look at it though. Wisconsin and Nebraska are good, Minnesota and Iowa are decent fillers that occasionally reach top25... but overall that division is awful.
B1G, SEC, and PAC should all want a footprint in Texas by the end ... SEC already got theirs with Aggy. If we miss on Texas/OU... then we're left to choose between the likes of TTech, Baylor, TCU, Houston, Rice, SMU, etc. And that's before PAC probably takes two more of their choosing to go with UT/OU. Rice is the only that fits the profile at all, but they'd still just be another cupcake in a bad Division. TTech is meh, Baylor and TCU are religious schools that'll soon go back to being doormats, don't even want to think about the other religious school, etc.

Eventually the B1G will expand to 16... so the question is, how can they shore up the West side? Is there anybody else worth adding on that side?
There are some decent options in the ACC, though none of them are very good on the field -- they're more additions of the Rutgers and Maryland variety. Going down that road to get NYC and DC beltway made sense, but there's only so much you can dilute the quality of on-field performance for tv markets and recruiting grounds. Moreover, they do nothing to fix the West Division or find new recruiting zones and tv markets on that side. And if 2 teams from ACC are added, who moves over? Indiana? Virginia, GTech, UNC, Pitt, Duke aren't bad Plan Bs but a footprint in Texas would do wonders for the West Division's recruiting, add tv rights like Rutgers/Maryland did... and if it's Texas/OU provide an immediate impact to the on-field product.

Regarding CCG locations etc. -- I think Texas will have to eat a lot of crow in the coming years. Eventually they will have to admit they sunk the BXII - even if it's just privately to themselves. It's no mistake that the 4 schools who jumped were all flagships in their states and AAU members... Texas is the only AAU school left in the BXII. Even the SEC has 4 members after adding Aggy and Missouri to Vandy and UF (and arguably Georgia should be a member.)
I can't image either PAC or B1G taking their crap. I'm not even sure SEC is interested** I don't see any conference (ok, maybe ACC) entertaining relocation of CCGs and such, and if they try to play that game... screw it, go to the PAC or SEC. The only way this works for B1G is after Texas has to face their own asshattery and eat some humble pie. So I say, bring on the controversy and knee-jerk reactions... add 2 more mid majors nobody else wants... add a second geographic island in Florida like some half-assed clusterfuck of random schools more closely resembling a mid major conference.

**they already have enough egos - in the West especially, and they already got the other flagship institution in that State who will do anything they tell them to and buy the SECSECSEC propaganda full on.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

i just can't agree. Bad cultural mix with oil barons at both schools quite willing to do whatever meets their needs to the detriment of the conference- I can all but guarantee the first demand would be to play theCCG at Jerrys place. It creates tremendous travel distances for non-revenue sports and does not do one damn thing to promote the Northeast/Midwest footprint - no one in Texas is going to do squat about securing a CFPS site north of Dallas.

Texas, like Notre Dame, is great on paper. In reality, they'd be a motherhoking cancer in the conference. Everything from not coming up North after the middle of October to demanding that the CCG move to JerryWorld to attempting to start going Survivor on the conference and start forming alliances of toadies to do their bidding. I truly believe they would destory the conference within a decade. It would be all about what Texas could suck out of the conference without giving anything back.

 

[lvbuckeye]

The only problem I see with 16 team conferences is the necessity of cross divisional play.

If your conference winner gets an auto-bid, you want the championship game to be a clean cut, best of each half battle for all the marbles. Then a committee (or BCS like system) could determine your at-large teams from the leftovers. When you are forced to schedule a couple of cross divisional opponents each year you're bound to have teams that play the best two teams across the line and teams that play the worst two teams across the line. This makes selecting your pool of at-large teams a matter of scheduling rather than a matter of on-the-field success.

I also can't see byes working out in college football with the kind of parity the top 8 teams often have (not to mention the disparity of practice time being a foreseeable issue). Imagine this year if #1 and #2 got byes at the end of the regular season while 3 played 6 and 4 played 5. You thought the [Mark May]-show about "Who's #4" was bad? Now you're basically having a committee choose which two teams deserve the significant advantage of NOT playing a play-in game.

I think it's more likely the NCAA adds 2 more bowls to the "New Years" bowls and goes to 8 teams with 4 at-large than 6 teams with a bye round.

Anyway. That's a whole other topic for a whole other thread.

Although, if we're talking about who might be those top 8 come "Selection Tuesday" I think you're looking at (in no particular order).

• Bama/MSST/UGA (pick 2)
• tOSU/MSU/Wiscy (pick 2)
• Oregon
• TCU
• Baylor

That'd make a hell of a playoff.

The six 'power five New Years bowls' are perfect for an eight team playoff.

There are currently 62 P5 schools.

The Bigxii is going the way of the big east.

Absorb the bigxii. That leaves two. NoD, join up or get out. That leaves one. Add whoever. I'm in favor of whomever wins the Commander's Cup.
That's up for debate. Add Cincinnati or Boise, doesn't matter. Just get to 64.

Of course, this means that there needs to be another split in the NCAA divisions. This makes sense, since the vast majority of the non-P5 schools don't have a chance anyway. Make it 5 divisions: D1; the 64 FBS schools, D2; former FBS schools, D3; former FCS schools, D4; former D2 schools, D5; former D3 schools. FCS and FBS are already two different divisions. Make it official.

That makes four 16 team D1 conferences.

I think everyone can see where it's going from here: eight divisions of eight teams. division winners get in. NO ONE ELSE. CCGs can determine the ones and twos.

There's your eight team bracket.

 

[TampaBuckeyes]

Why does everyone think the big 12 is being absorbed? We all know 4 conferences is ideal, but it takes a lot more than that for a conference to be taken. As long as the money is there and they are still relevant in the 2 major sports they aren't going to break apart just to make everyone else happy.

 

[ShowMeBuck]

I've been in the UT/OU camp for a while. Every team has warts including these 2 but there are lots of positives as well and they are pretty obvious. I'm no expert on the subject but the recent conference alignments of the B1G sure seemed like an overture to those 2 schools to me. Purdon't moves east and you have a balanced conference of solid teams on each side and a huge footprint both in terms of recruiting and eyeballs for network revenue. Again, many negatives but loads of positives.

 

[scarletmike]

Why does everyone think the big 12 is being absorbed? We all know 4 conferences is ideal, but it takes a lot more than that for a conference to be taken. As long as the money is there and they are still relevant in the 2 major sports they aren't going to break apart just to make everyone else happy.

Because Texas' arrogance and selfishness has gotten the conference to this point rather quickly, and it probably won't take much to make the situation worse for the conference.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I've been in the UT/OU camp for a while. Every team has warts including these 2 but there are lots of positives as well and they are pretty obvious. I'm no expert on the subject but the recent conference alignments of the B1G sure seemed like an overture to those 2 schools to me. Purdon't moves east and you have a balanced conference of solid teams on each side and a huge footprint both in terms of recruiting and eyeballs for network revenue. Again, many negatives but loads of positives.

I don't see lots of positives at all. OU is essentially Nebraska II--a school that brings absolutely NOTHING to the Big Ten other than football. Texas is a complete package (football, basketball, olympic sports, television markets, national alumni base and AAU), but they also bring a mindset and mentality that would threaten to rip the Big Ten apart. They would be a divisive cancer. Although I was no fan of inviting Nebraska, they are in the conference now, and I certainly think we would respect their wishes (and their experiences) vis-a-vis Texas, and there's no doubt as to what those are.

 

[ShowMeBuck]

Yeah, I could tell from comments not many agreed. Like I said, good luck find the perfect couple of schools though...vis-a-vis and all that ;-)

 

[OSU_D/]

Although I was no fan of inviting Nebraska, they are in the conference now, and I certainly think we would respect their wishes (and their experiences) vis-a-vis Texas, and there's no doubt as to what those are.

Keep in mind when the Big XII was formed Nebraska was awesome and argued on the SAME side as Texas for the uneven distribution of revenue. It was only after Nebraska started to go downhill and Texas got better that Nebraska started to whine like little girls about how unfair the uneven distribution was.

 

[Woody1968]

Why does everyone think the big 12 is being absorbed? We all know 4 conferences is ideal, but it takes a lot more than that for a conference to be taken. As long as the money is there and they are still relevant in the 2 major sports they aren't going to break apart just to make everyone else happy.

The Big XII members are extremely unhappy with Texas. They are unhappy that their champions got left out of the big money. The Horns have their own network, so they don't have as much incentive to help the conference Negotiate a better TV deal, and who is going to pay top money for the TV rights for a bunch of great plains states and glorified mid-majors in Texas? I read that if they even add 2 more scrubs, the conference will already be losing money.

 

[cincibuck]

The problem inside the Big Ten is solvable - you don't have to have Michigan, Ohio State, Nebraska and Penn State - the four Big Ten programs with the facilities, money, alumni base and tradition to consistently challenge for the CCG and beyond - in the same division. Having three of them in the East and pretending that Wisconsin, Minnesota or Iowa will suddenly emerge as a balancing power is a) stupid and b) devoid of any sense or knowledge of conference history.

If you haven't been to Austin you haven't seen the concrete evidence of the cultural difference between Texas and the current member schools of the Big Ten. What BT president would feel comfortable being photo opted on UT's South Mall amid the statues honoring Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, Braxton Bragg, William Stewart Simkiins and other stalwarts of the Confederacy and the KKK? The more you look around the more you realize that the big money donors keep two separate estates going. They have allowed the academic side of the school to go about it's business as long as the "pointy-head, intellectual types" don't poke their noses into what is going on on the athletic estate. As the state government continues to slide towards anti-intellectualism, anti-science and pro-fundamentalism, the more Austin becomes a tiny sanctuary of academic freedom and the more that same freedom is threatened with restrictions and tighter scrutiny and control of funding.

There is a real reason why the Big XII has only ten members. The original Big 8 made the mistake of inviting the wolf to the dinner party. It didn't take long before Missouri and Colorado decided they'd had enough. They left because they did not want to play in a conference where the rules so benefited one member at the expense of all the others. Nebraska took the offer from the Big Ten and never looked back for the same reason. Even Crazy aTm could see that big brother wanted nothing less than total control and the SEC was only glad to give them an escape route.

What makes anyone think that UT's drivers would behave any differently if allowed in the Big Ten? You might even note the lack of concern among Texas and Oklahoma fans over Ohio State jumping TCU AND Baylor into the CFPS - it's because they don't give a damn. They know that if either of them had been ranked ahead of the Buckeyes they would have gotten in, CCG or no CCG.

 

[JCOSU86]

The problem inside the Big Ten is solvable - you don't have to have Michigan, Ohio State, Nebraska and Penn State - the four Big Ten programs with the facilities, money, alumni base and tradition to consistently challenge for the CCG and beyond - in the same division. Having three of them in the East and pretending that Wisconsin, Minnesota or Iowa will suddenly emerge as a balancing power is a) stupid and b) devoid of any sense or knowledge of conference history.

If you haven't been to Austin you haven't seen the concrete evidence of the cultural difference between Texas and the current member schools of the Big Ten. What BT president would feel comfortable being photo opted on UT's South Mall amid the statues honoring Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, Braxton Bragg, William Stewart Simkiins and other stalwarts of the Confederacy and the KKK? The more you look around the more you realize that the big money donors keep two separate estates going. They have allowed the academic side of the school to go about it's business as long as the "pointy-head, intellectual types" don't poke their noses into what is going on on the athletic estate. As the state government continues to slide towards anti-intellectualism, anti-science and pro-fundamentalism, the more Austin becomes a tiny sanctuary of academic freedom and the more that same freedom is threatened with restrictions and tighter scrutiny and control of funding.

There is a real reason why the Big XII has only ten members. The original Big 8 made the mistake of inviting the wolf to the dinner party. It didn't take long before Missouri and Colorado decided they'd had enough. They left because they did not want to play in a conference where the rules so benefited one member at the expense of all the others. Nebraska took the offer from the Big Ten and never looked back for the same reason. Even Crazy aTm could see that big brother wanted nothing less than total control and the SEC was only glad to give them an escape route.

What makes anyone think that UT's drivers would behave any differently if allowed in the Big Ten? You might even note the lack of concern among Texas and Oklahoma fans over Ohio State jumping TCU AND Baylor into the CFPS - it's because they don't give a damn. They know that if either of them had been ranked ahead of the Buckeyes they would have gotten in, CCG or no CCG.

Damn good post, cinci. I've been arguing against Texas ever since that talk started for those reasons. I don't Rutgers or Maryland either (same reasons - regionalism) but Texas has now destroyed 2 conferences - the old SWC and now the Big 12. Thanks, but, uh, no thanks.

 

[Muck]

The West Division needs help no matter how you look at it though. Wisconsin and Nebraska are good, Minnesota and Iowa are decent fillers that occasionally reach top25... but overall that division is awful.

100 year decisions aren't made over short term football performance.

B1G, SEC, and PAC should all want a footprint in Texas by the end ... SEC already got theirs with Aggy. If we miss on Texas/OU... then we're left to choose between the likes of TTech, Baylor, TCU, Houston, Rice, SMU, etc. And that's before PAC probably takes two more of their choosing to go with UT/OU. Rice is the only that fits the profile at all, but they'd still just be another cupcake in a bad Division. TTech is meh, Baylor and TCU are religious schools that'll soon go back to being doormats, don't even want to think about the other religious school, etc.

The B1G is not going to be 'left' to pick over schools that it is not interested in. None of the SWC flotsam is ever going to be considered by the conference just because you erroneously believe it needs an 'in' with the state of Texas.

Eventually the B1G will expand to 16... so the question is, how can they shore up the West side? Is there anybody else worth adding on that side?
There are some decent options in the ACC, though none of them are very good on the field -- they're more additions of the Rutgers and Maryland variety. Going down that road to get NYC and DC beltway made sense, but there's only so much you can dilute the quality of on-field performance for tv markets and recruiting grounds. Moreover, they do nothing to fix the West Division or find new recruiting zones and tv markets on that side. And if 2 teams from ACC are added, who moves over? Indiana? Virginia, GTech, UNC, Pitt, Duke aren't bad Plan Bs but a footprint in Texas would do wonders for the West Division's recruiting, add tv rights like Rutgers/Maryland did... and if it's Texas/OU provide an immediate impact to the on-field product.

If the B1G decides to expand in the future it will have zero to do with 'shoring up the West'.

Texas is the only AAU school left in the BXII.

So when did Kansas & Iowa State leave the big 12?

I can't image either PAC or B1G taking their crap. I'm not even sure SEC is interested.

The B1G, Pac12, SEC & ACC would all accept Texas as an equal member in a heart beat. To believe otherwise is complete foolishness.

 

[BuckeyeSoldier]

I want georgia tech. good at football, decent academics, brings in atlanta.

 

[jwinslow]

The problem inside the Big Ten is solvable - you don't have to have Michigan, Ohio State, Nebraska and Penn State - the four Big Ten programs with the facilities, money, alumni base and tradition to consistently challenge for the CCG and beyond - in the same division. Having three of them in the East and pretending that Wisconsin, Minnesota or Iowa will suddenly emerge as a balancing power is a) stupid and b) devoid of any sense or knowledge of conference history.

1) Nebraska is not in our division. Michigan State is.

2) People often gripe about division imbalance without considering the implications. Rather than have 6+ (no PSU, you haven't earned inclusion here) compelling matchups between UM, MSU & OSU, you are advocating to cancel 2 of those games each year in the hopes that the divisions are more balanced and the CCG is more compelling. That's completely backwards logic and is protecting the possibility of a future matchup rather than playing 2 additional games like that every year.