2015-16 Ohio State Quarterback Discussion

[Tanner]

Because he's in love with his 6'5" 250lb frame and cannon arm, just like everyone else.

The thing is, Ohio State didn't win the playoff because of Cardale. They won out because the defense got off the field every damn third down, and Zeke put up numbers that project out to 2550 yards and 30 TDs over an eleven game schedule. Now I think Eze is a fantastic running back, but those kind of numbers are getting into Barry Sanders circa 1988 territory. As good as he is, I don't think he's on the same level as Barry Freaking Sanders. Over 15 games, we're looking at 3480 rushing yards. Troy won the Heisman with 400 fewer PASSING yards.

They kinda did. It's extremely hard if not impossible to defend an offense that is proficient at both power running and deep passing. Part of the reason Elliott went off was Cardale was dangerous throwing the ball deep, and vice versa. And that's not even mentioning Cardale's numerous 3rd and 4th down conversions with his legs.

 

[kujirakira]

I'm not going to argue over which is a better QB. My original point was that each camp is using last year performances as proof for who should be starting this year. It's either, "JT was amazingly efficient last season, broke Drew Brees' record, and finished 5th in the Heisman voting," or its "Jones beat all 3 Heisman finalists, curb stomped wisconsin, and won the National Champipnship."

I'm full in JT's camp but this is pretty dead on.
At this point I've accepted that JT didn't start in our 3 post-VT-pre-B1G-season games b/c he didn't earn it for whatever reason.
Somebody commented earlier that deciphering Meyer is similar to deciphering Tressel... I disagree. Tressel was circumspect about most things. Meyer is usually glib. This is the one time I can't read him very well... and I think it's fueled the "controversy" here and elsewhere. You can read whatever you want into Meyer's statements... but the actions are pretty consistent. Cardale is the starter. Evidently the coaches believe he's earned that through Spring and Fall, while JT has earned the right to be listed as "OR" on the paper rosters - but not actually start.
I put controversy it in scare quotes b/c apparently it's not much of a controversy for the actual team/coaches.

If it continues from last week, I consider the competition over. If Cardale can avoid another NIU-esque disaster (and it really was a disastrous performance) and continue making improvements it's all gravy. I commented after the Hawaii game that the tempo between the two was very noticeable -- and they clearly worked on that with Cardale.
The future is bright =)

 

[kujirakira]

They kinda did. It's extremely hard if not impossible to defend an offense that is proficient at both power running and deep passing. Part of the reason Elliott went off was Cardale was dangerous throwing the ball deep, and vice versa. And that's not even mentioning Cardale's numerous 3rd and 4th down conversions with his legs.

This myth has been gone over so many times. Eze had a higher ypc in JT's full and uninjured games. Most of his long runs w/Cardale also had the safeties up -- thus why they went the distance, there wasn't another level of defense once he broke free.
Do you think the safeties were up b/c they were afraid of Cardale's deep arm?
The benefit of Cardale's arm is best seen in intermediate game where he can zip the ball into tight spaces. Or when he's on the run and can still complete passes downfield where JT would have to set his feet. That can also get him into trouble if he gets too reckless.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. It's a new year.

 

[Tanner]

This myth has been gone over so many times. Eze had a higher ypc in JT's full and uninjured games. Most of his long runs w/Cardale also had the safeties up -- thus why they went the distance, there wasn't another level of defense once he broke free.
Do you think the safeties were up b/c they were afraid of Cardale's deep arm?
The benefit of Cardale's arm is best seen in intermediate game where he can zip the ball into tight spaces. Or when he's on the run and can still complete passes downfield where JT would have to set his feet. That can also get him into trouble if he gets too reckless.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. It's a new year.

Elliott averaged more than the 9.2 yards per carry he averaged in Cardale's starts in "JT's full and uninjured games"? Go ahead and run those numbers by me again.

 

[matcar]

They kinda did. It's extremely hard if not impossible to defend an offense that is proficient at both power running and deep passing. Part of the reason Elliott went off was Cardale was dangerous throwing the ball deep, and vice versa. And that's not even mentioning Cardale's numerous 3rd and 4th down conversions with his legs.

I don't think that's why EzE had those numbers. It was because line play and WR downfield blocking was at its peak and EzE was too. I think the start of this year has proven that out. EzE is doing quite well, but nowhere near what he had before - and that's because of OL and WR. Cardale is largely a non factor in this.

 

[buckeyesin07]

I don't think that's why EzE had those numbers. It was because line play and WR downfield blocking was at its peak and EzE was too. I think the start of this year has proven that out. EzE is doing quite well, but nowhere near what he had before - and that's because of OL and WR. Cardale is largely a non factor in this.

Agreed. And the lack of long runs is more due to the WR blocking (or lack thereof, relative to last year). The line determines whether it's a run for a loss or for a 5-10 yard gain. But whether that 5-10 yard gain ends there or goes to the house is a product of the downfield blocking by the WRs. Unfortunately, that hasn't been there yet this year, save for the 80+ yarder early in the VT game.

 

[kujirakira]

Elliott averaged more than the 9.2 yards per carry he averaged in Cardale's starts in "JT's full and uninjured games"? Go ahead and run those numbers by me again.

My apologies, I remembered it slightly wrong.
It was higher team rushing ypa and higher team rushing with less Eze carries.
http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/...erback-discussion.633317/page-72#post-2641505

Nonetheless, the myth about Cardale's arm opening the run doesn't hold up. While Eze was personally a bit better in games with Cardale, the entire running game was higher ypa and higher total rushing under JT.
Some other posts/articles on this topic...
Eze's production against Oregon had little to do with Cardale
http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/...erback-discussion.633317/page-60#post-2619770

Quotes about how defenses didn't change for Cardale - they had a longer article going into film analysis that meshed with Boren's quote. Maybe I'll try to find it later.
http://theozone.net/Ohio-State/Foot...ok-Did-Cardale-Jones-Force-Defenses-to-Change

FWIW, and I'm not going to hunt down the stats post I made for it ... but as I recall, Cardale had a higher ypa and ypc than JT in passing - ie, more efficient (though I'm sure BN27 will be along shortly to correct me with better ways to measure efficiency -- and he'd be right)
Still, that's another myth that's often propagated in this argument.

 

[greyscarlet]

I don't think that's why EzE had those numbers. It was because line play and WR downfield blocking was at its peak and EzE was too. I think the start of this year has proven that out. EzE is doing quite well, but nowhere near what he had before - and that's because of OL and WR. Cardale is largely a non factor in this.

You seem to have a very liberal
Definition of proven. I would expect Cardales participation had a statistically significant impact. Is it the dominant factor I don't know. My inclination would be line play but not much has changed there either. By your conclusion the only logical factor is really wr play and Tom Herman.
One thing I consider with Cardales is how he played with reckless abandon, trucking over dt's like I've never seen before. Is he playing a bit more conservatively this year and is that so he stays healthy the full year? Are the missed deep balls allowing the d's to key in the run, did defenses figure out how to slow the counter we ran 40 times against Oregon and are these impacting how defenses are defending the run?

 

[matcar]

You seem to have a very liberal
Definition of proven. I would expect Cardales participation had a statistically significant impact. Is it the dominant factor I don't know. My inclination would be line play but not much has changed there either. By your conclusion the only logical factor is really wr play and Tom Herman.
One thing I consider with Cardales is how he played with reckless abandon, trucking over dt's like I've never seen before. Is he playing a bit more conservatively this year and is that so he stays healthy the full year? Are the missed deep balls allowing the d's to key in the run, did defenses figure out how to slow the counter we ran 40 times against Oregon and are these impacting how defenses are defending the run?

The OL simply hasn't performed well nor have the wide receivers blocking downfield. And yeah, you could throw Herman in the mix. But the noise about Cardale is just noise. His ability to chuck it deep hasn't changed but EzE isn't ripping off huge gains. That isn't Cardale's fault now nor was it his credit before.

 

[MaxBuck]

I hardly think Urban Meyer is making the decision based on who can throw the ball the furthest.

 

[greyscarlet]

The OL simply hasn't performed well nor have the wide receivers blocking downfield. And yeah, you could throw Herman in the mix. But the noise about Cardale is just noise. His ability to chuck it deep hasn't changed but EzE isn't ripping off huge gains. That isn't Cardale's fault now nor was it his credit before.

So the ol hasn't performed well and neither has cardale so the o line is a factor and cardale isn't? PROOVEN, FACTS, EVIDENCE!
I would agree there are other likely more significant factors but there is absolutely nothing PROOVEN cardales play in the 3 game stretch didn't impact eze's success. Didn't Bama and Oregon start spying cardale, I could be wrong here?

 

[matcar]

So the ol hasn't performed well and neither has cardale so the o line is a factor and cardale isn't? PROOVEN, FACTS, EVIDENCE!
I would agree there are other likely more significant factors but there is absolutely nothing PROOVEN cardales play in the 3 game stretch didn't impact eze's success. Didn't Bama and Oregon start spying cardale, I could be wrong here?

Look, Cardale's imperfect performances are irrelevant. He had imperfect performances in his bit roles last year and EzE ripped off big yardage in the last 3 games. I'm not interested in carrying on with the debate, it's pretty obvious by now what the real factors are, whether you wish to concede or not.

 

[C-busBuck]

Look. There are those in Cardale's and those in JT's camp. Neither is likely to convince the other who should be starting. But it is a moot point since Urban has made his decision. I concede to that fact. But not to the points the Cardale camp has attempted to sell me on. Either way. Go Bucks.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

Look. There are those in Cardale's and those in JT's camp. Neither is likely to convince the other who should be starting. But it is a moot point since Urban has made his decision. I concede to that fact. But not to the points the Cardale camp has attempted to sell me on. Either way. Go Bucks.

Let's start Zwick and put Smith in the wildcat.

 

[greyscarlet]

Look, Cardale's imperfect performances are irrelevant. He had imperfect performances in his bit roles last year and EzE ripped off big yardage in the last 3 games. I'm not interested in carrying on with the debate, it's pretty obvious by now what the real factors are, whether you wish to concede or not.

So you carry on with the debate and then say your not going to. Your perception is your reality, data be damned.