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2013 tOSU Defense Discussion

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ShowMeBuck said:
Just curious...why do you think it is still happening? I just watched Urb's presser and he said 16 missed tackles against Cal. That seems like a bunch.
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Could be a number of things;
  • I don't think tackling gets practiced as much as it used to by a lot of teams.
  • I also wonder if some of the younger guys just don't understand how hard they have to go all the time yet
  • Some simple laziness, lack of concentration, poor effort
  • Out of position sometimes
  • offenses are good
  • other guys on scholarship too
  • near 90 plays,
  • 16 misses that's almost 18%, so they basically missed 1 in 4
  • A 60 play Tresselball game that's about 10-11 missed tackles. It doesn't seem so bad when you look at it like that.

I am staying calm on the tackling thing for now, we saw improvement as the year went on last year but it concerns me, no doubt.
 
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Jaxbuck said:
Yeah if you meant expectations of tackling execution I agree with you. I understand why its still happening (somewhat) but its not an excuse. It needs to get better or we will get it handed to us by a really good team.

That said I do indeed think holding opponents in the mid to low 20's is going to be considered "good" not just for our defense but most during this era we find ourselves in. Offenses are just that damned good, the rules all favor the offense and the tempo is much faster.

As far as the 2013 Buckeyes go, I personally expected some early season struggles so I'm not all that worried about it (assuming they continue to improve). Somebody is not only going to have to gash this D for 40+ but hold the O under that to beat us. Not saying its impossible but I really don't see anyone on the schedule that makes me think its probable either.
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Winner.

Let's keep in mind that OSU's base defense in the past decade has featured 4 DL, 3 LB and 4 DBs. The base defense vs. Cal was probably 4 DL, 1 LB and 6 DBs.

When you play a traditional offense and can dominate the point of attack in the trenches like OSU does, there wouldn't be that many opportunities for miss tackles. But when you got 6 DBs trying to make the first tackle in space, there's a whole lot more room for error. It's just simple mechanics.

Not trying to excuse OSU's tackling as that does need to get better, but it's just how the game has evolved. Kinda like how basketball teams began scoring more points when they added the three point line.
 
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I am concerned about the tackling, in that we were having this conversation at this time last year, as well. I am hoping that we're witnessing a symptom of near-wholesale turnover of personnel on defense, rather than an inability to effect improvement in technique.

That said...

They need to tackle better. Coat the scout team in grease or something.... Whatever it takes to improve.
 
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Most of the missed tackling is about fatigue. These hyper speed offenses are built to make the defense stay on the field too long and fight too hard. When defenders get tired, they make mistakes. Why do you think special operations units practice with sleep deprivation? Tired operators make mistakes. Same with the defense. They have to win on first down and then be sure tacklers on second and third down. Getting off the field is the best way to beat these offenses. In that sense, I don't like the 7 yard cushion by the DB's because it allows for first downs. People get tired the more plays they are out there and when the offense puts up 90 plays or so, you are going to have mistakes. Roby's lack of effort on the one long pass was something else. That can't happen.

Fortunately we are getting a ton of guys reps this early on. By mid season this defense will be pretty damn awesome. It will need to be also with that Northwestern game coming up which is one of the 3 scariest on the schedule without a doubt. Sometimes, like has been mentioned in this thread, the offense deserves some credit for their execution also. We haven't been close to losing yet so I feel pretty good at this point.

Eh, one more caveat. If FAMU scores 20 on us this week I'm going to be pissed.
 
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Some very good points made here. Shazier said he thinks it's partly because guys know there are other defenders behind them who can assist, thereby making the initial defender think more about hitting than tackling. Also, coach said he didn't think it was a lack of effort. I have no clue but I do think Jax first comment about lack of practice on the fundamentals is largely to blame along with a mentality that "someone else will help out" like Shazier indicated. I think this comes from an overconfidence in the scheme itself making the difference. Maybe this is a side affect of how technical defenses have become. Call me old school but I picture Woody drilling into his players that they alone have to be tough, stick their nose in there and wrap up or else they are letting everyone down. This was before the film room era and more time was spent on the basics.
 
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It wasn't 1 in 4. 90 plays, but on several of those it was incomplete or the guy went out of bounds or scored a touchdown without a missed tackle. And 18% is closer to 1 in 5 not 1 in 4 :p
But yeah, we need to not miss tackles. The worst are when the guy hits a guy instead of wrapping up. Cal's offense seems to put their players in good position to get extra yards though, there were a lot of angles that made it easy to break or miss a tackle for the receivers and backs because of misdirection and counters and that play action handoff.
 
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Room to improve.....be we vent therefore we are......not to be confused with bashing.

Also having the highest expectations for all is never a negative. :urban2::coombs:

After all is said and done, I am and forever will be a Buckeye. Go Bucks!:oh:
 
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ShowMeBuck said:
Disagree 100%.

Here is the litmus test: Have we seen a NC caliber defensive performance yet from tOSU? I think we clearly have not. I want it fixed because I think by year end our offense will be NC caliber and the defense better be too damn it. Let's quit pussy footing around, tackle and make the INT when it is there to be made. All the above posts about recalibrating, bending and not breaking, etc. is just crap. What in the world does a quick strike offense have to do with making tackles and getting picks when they are there to be made? Sheesh people, raise your expectations and let's raise the crystal ball in the process.
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You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. No one is saying the D is fine or that we don't need or want a good one.

Here is the reality you are not taking into account - Just a few years ago, teams were averaging 40-50 (and less the further back you go) plays a game on offense. They were huddling after every play giving the defense time to get set and rest. Now you can almost double that with hurry-up spread teams. The speed of offense does not allow the defense to set easily. There is less time to get the defensive call in, and have it understood and executed. This results in poor line ups, confusion, etc. That sheer number of plays added to the confusion that is created on the defensive side is going to result in more yards and more points. There is also the fatigue factor. You had better be 2-3 deep at every level of the defense - and the depth has to be high quality - in order to avoid wearing your defense out. With 85 scholars, it's hard for anyone to have that kind of depth.

Also, Ohio State is running a high-speed, dynamic offense. Those offenses have the effect of tiring out their own defenses because they are either scoring quickly or punting quickly. So, therefore, ergo, if you have an offense that is dynamic like that and a defense that gives up 10.0 ppg, they have a name for you - national champions. But that combination is a rare thing in CFB.

Two perennial top defenses are Alabama and Sparty. Alabama's game last week aside, they want to huddle, rely on a power running game, and supplement that with efficient passing. That results in longer drives and rests their defense. Sparty is up there running Dave 30 times a game and resting their defense. Even when they go 3 and out (which is often), they are resting their defense for at least 3 min of game time. There is a direct connection between the style of offense and the effectiveness of the other side of the ball.

So, it just doesn't work to have 2005 expectations of what a good defense looks like in 2013. The game has changed that dramatically - for better or for worse. So, you recalibrate your expectations, bring them up to date, or you will be a very frustrated fan.
 
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We're having a lot of fun talking tackling, but I have a question for our more sagacious members. Should we worry about our players' difficulties in shedding blocks?

The WR screens stick out in my mind--it seems other teams' receivers usually block them very effectively against us, regardless of whether we have an equal or even superior number of defenders in the area. If its 2-on-2, shouldn't we be fairly successful at making that stop?

So, is this also an area of concern, or just another side effect of modern offenses/schemes?
 
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