2009 TSUN News (football only discussion)

[Mel Kiper Jr]

For arguments sake, let's give Rich a mulligan in his first season at WVU in 2001, where he went 3-8 and lost to everybody he played, much like he did his first year at Michigan.

His next two years ('02 and '03), he beat Virginia Tech and Boston College twice in a row, in the 2002 and 2003 seasons. That's 4-0 against those 2 programs in back-to-back seasons. Pretty good if you ask me.

He had a losing record against VT. He lost in 04 & 05.

Honestly, BC is just a throw-in in these discussions (it's really about Miami & VT), but he lost to them too in 04. He didn't play them in 05.

Yes, he lost to Miami in '02 and '03 (he lost by 2 on the road b/c of a failed 2pt conv in '03), but honestly, he was playing against a freaking stacked deck. Miami was, well, MIAMI back then having gone 46-4 from 2000-2003 (TALK ABOUT RIDICULOUS, and you all were one of only 4 teams to beat them in that time-span...WOW).

Miami eeked out over half their wins that year. Still, I don't fault him for losing to Miami, but the point remains he was second tier behind Da U & VT.

I don't think you can blame this on Rich. Fact of the matter, is that West Virgnia as a college never really put players in the NFL, and the entire state of West Virginia only has 3 players born and raised from there that play in the NFL. For instance, the city of Detroit alone has over 40.

His predecessor put twice as many players into the nfl.

Pacman Jones and Chris Henry were on their way to great NFL careers before they self-imploded with off-field issues.

Pac-Man was the type of kid he recruited at WVU, he took a lot of troubled kids. Pacman was originally on his way to jail for assaulting someone with a pool stick, but the sentence was changed to probation. He never missed a game.

Shaun King played 2 years under Rodriguez and was a 2nd rounder. Hell Pat White became a 2nd rounder. Steve Slaton was a 3rd rounder who is tearing it up in the NFL and in two short years is showing that he'll probably be better in the NFL than any RB that has ever come from Michigan.

I think this lack of placing NFL players is really over-stated. Bottom line is Rich didn't have access to the kind of players he will at Michigan. Take a look at his classes at WVU on the Rivals/Scout databases and then his few at Michigan.

He never came close to signing a defensive player as highly regarded as Justin Turner or Will Campbell. Not even once.

He also tended to just recruit athletse on defense and let them sort it out later, while focusing more on offensive recruiting. He's done the same at UM to a degree.

He's made sure to recruit an abundance of qbs, rbs, wrs, slots... yet has yet to recruit a single true LB in any of his 2 classes of 09 & 10. He has athletes like Kinnard, Gordon, Hawthorne... but where are the Crables that UM has had over the years?

Mundy looked pretty damn good to me against Oklahoma in that BCS game. Better than he EVER looked at Michigan. Shoot, Mundy sucked so bad at Michigan that the phrase "YAM"- Yards After Mundy was coined and used by Michigan fans on message boards all over the interwebz.

Eh, he was coached up to a 6th round draft pick. He was less of a liability at WVU, but I wouldn't say he was very good.

 

[jwinslow]

Good discussion BTW....hope you stick around as a level-headed UM poster.

Agreed. Disagreement is fine, siding with the enemy is fine, just back up your stances with statistics & reason. You've done a nice job of this so far. Keep it up.

We have too few posters like three7 (half-buckeye now), zwem, HtM, etc. Hopefully you can stick around as another.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Not true at all.

For arguments sake, let's give Rich a mulligan in his first season at WVU in 2001, where he went 3-8 and lost to everybody he played, much like he did his first year at Michigan.

His next two years ('02 and '03), he beat Virginia Tech and Boston College twice in a row, in the 2002 and 2003 seasons. That's 4-0 against those 2 programs in back-to-back seasons. Pretty good if you ask me.

Yes, he lost to Miami in '02 and '03 (he lost by 2 on the road b/c of a failed 2pt conv in '03), but honestly, he was playing against a freaking stacked deck. Miami was, well, MIAMI back then having gone 46-4 from 2000-2003 (TALK ABOUT RIDICULOUS, and you all were one of only 4 teams to beat them in that time-span...WOW).

Rich's 2003 WVU team won a share of the Big East title and were Co-Champs with BC, Va Tech, and Miami still in the Big East. Rich's 2004 WVU team won a share of the Big East title with BC and VaTech still in the league.

and the implosions against USF and the epic choke job against Pitt?

I take it you have some rationale as to why those shouldn't count against Rodriguez?

Everything you are bringing up is simple revisionist history of the things discussed when RR first came to scUM. Now its "what did you expect" back then it was Barwis!! and impending domination of the slow plodding B10.

Of course you'll say you never thought they do better than 5-7 but at the time we were up to our necks in scUM fans projecting much better records than that.

Tsun football isn't going to die any more than ND, Bama or OU did when their programs were at their low points. It also isn't going to start reeling off NC runs while a guy like RR is the head coach.

 

[Merih]

I've been here since day one. Migrated from TOS when TGB left. I'm done. The people on this site who are espousing the anti Lloyd Carr venom should be ashamed of themselves. Lloyd is, was and always will be the definition of a Michigan Man. RR is who he is. Lloyd told him when he got the job that he would NEVER comment on his program. Lloyd told him if he EVER heard a comment it was a lie. Why did he say that? Because it is RR"s program, not his.
What comment would you like to hear from Lloyd? Have you heard anything of substance from Martin? NO. Because they aren't involved in the program on a a day to day basis. What is Lloyd supposed to say: "I don't think RR cheats" or "sure RR's kids are doing better in school than any of mine" or "yes I'm thrilled he fired all my coaches, ran off my players and insults my program from day one."
It's RR's program. sink or swim. Don't expect a comment from LC. If you think LC shouldn't go to Iowa( drive on his own dime) to support Michigan you are certifiably insane or still on drugs.
Do any of you wonder why Leach seems to speak for the program now, but had no role for 30 years? He was ostracized by BO because he embarrassed the program and himself. He was personna non grata until RR, who didn't understand the background got here. Leach doesn't speak for Bo, that's for sure.
I want the program to flourish, if RR does well we all win. As LC told me at one point" All we need to do is win, the rest takes care of itself".

Wow...ypsiblue is done? He was a heavy hitter over on that site.

 

[mbama1]

He had a losing record against VT. He lost in 04 & 05.]

He lost by 6 points in Blacksburg against VT in '04. A team that was more talented than his WVU team. He did still win a share of the Big East title and coach-up QB Rasheed Marshall into becoming the 2004 Big East offensive player of the year.

Oh, and that game he lost against VT in '05, well that was the only game he lost that entire season as he went 11-1 and beat Georgia in what is as close as you can get to a home game for an SEC team in a bowl in the Sugar Bowl.

Honestly, BC is just a throw-in in these discussions (it's really about Miami & VT), but he lost to them too in 04. He didn't play them in 05. Miami eeked out over half their wins that year. Still, I don't fault him for losing to Miami, but the point remains he was second tier behind Da U & VT.

Well, he brought up BC, not I. BC is still a school that produces more NFL talent than West Virginia, period. He went 2-1 against them (if we are discounting '01 as a mulligan).

Miami went 46-4 from 2000-2003, that's probably the most impressive record in CFB, and the amount of NFL talent, top tier NFL talent on ALL of those teams is simply mind-boggling.

He was second tier behind Da U and VT but he was playing with one arm tied behind his back. Both of those programs get more talent than West Virginia ever have or will, and it was the same under his predecessor and will be under his successors, doesn't matter who is coaching there short of Vince Lombardi re-incarnated. That is just the reality of the situation.

His predecessor put twice as many players into the nfl.

He was there for 7 years. His predecessor was there for 21 years. He was there 3x longer than Rich, so it stands to reason that he would put out more NFL players.

Pac-Man was the type of kid he recruited at WVU, he took a lot of troubled kids. Pacman was originally on his way to jail for assaulting someone with a pool stick, but the sentence was changed to probation. He never missed a game.

Rodriguez had to take a gamble on kids like Pacman. He had absolutely no choice at a place like WVU. Especially since Pacman was one of his first recruits and he was trying to build WVU into a national program that played in prime-time games on ESPN and in BCS games. Which he succeeded at doing by the way.

He also tended to just recruit athletse on defense and let them sort it out later, while focusing more on offensive recruiting. He's done the same at UM to a degree.

He's made sure to recruit an abundance of qbs, rbs, wrs, slots... yet has yet to recruit a single true LB in any of his 2 classes of 09 & 10. He has athletes like Kinnard, Gordon, Hawthorne... but where are the Crables that UM has had over the years?

Crable stunk for most of his career, so honestly, I hope there are no more Crable's. LOL.

I have seen Brandin Hawthorne in high school twice, and all I have to say is THANK GOD they signed him up.

I don't get too caught up in the recruiting non-sense. Obviously you want highly touted players, but it's not the end all be all.

I've seen plenty of supposed 5*'s at Michigan bust out.

I've seen plenty of 3*'s ball out.

Eh, he was coached up to a 6th round draft pick. He was less of a liability at WVU, but I wouldn't say he was very good.

He looked great in that BCS game. He looked incredible really, especially just knowing how bad he truly really sucked under Ron English. He did a complete 180 at WVU in only a year.

Kind of like Stevie Brown is doing right now with making the move to OLB under Greg Robinson. It's astounding really.

 

[Merih]

He's a much tougher cookie to crack than mh...that's for damn sure.

Good on ya mate.

 

[Mel Kiper Jr]

He was there for 7 years. His predecessor was there for 21 years. He was there 3x longer than Rich, so it stands to reason that he would put out more NFL players.

I'm not talking quantity, I'm talking percentages. RR put out half as many players per year as his predecessor.

Crable stunk for most of his career, so honestly, I hope there are no more Crable's. LOL.

But Carr told me his blown tackle and 75 yard chase of Ringer was one of the best plays he's ever seen. I had to mute the phone until I could stop laughing.

I have seen Brandin Hawthorne in high school twice, and all I have to say is THANK GOD they signed him up.

Good athlete, might make a good spinner. I think Barwis is right, they need more big uglies.

I've seen plenty of supposed 5*'s at Michigan bust out.

I've seen plenty of 3*'s ball out.

Individually, stars are a meager predictor. Overall, with entire classes or many put together, they are a pretty good gauge of the incoming talent.

 

[mbama1]

and the implosions against USF and the epic choke job against Pitt?

Weren't Pat White and Steve Slaton hurt in both of those games?

Like Lloyd Carr never choked in a game?

 

[Merih]

Weren't Pat White and Steve Slaton hurt in both of those games?

Like Lloyd Carr never choked in a game?

So do you believe that Rich Rodriguez is a better coach than Lloyd Carr?

 

[Mel Kiper Jr]

Weren't Pat White and Steve Slaton hurt in both of those games?

Pat White was dinged up, but that's a byproduct of a read option rushing attack. Tate has been dinged up in nearly every game this year.

Slaton was dinged up, but Devine was just fine. They shut both of them down, because RR kept running his offense and did not attack downfield. Not even when they brought in the better passer in Jarrett Brown.

So do you believe that Rich Rodriguez is a better coach than Lloyd Carr?

I think it's pretty irrelevant, honestly.

Even if he is, he should be, he was brought in to clean up Lloyd's mess. Being better than an over the hill coach isn't an accomplishment.

 

[Wingate1217]

C) Bottom line is the recruiting classes the past few years under Carr were sub-par and there were a ton of misses. We missed out on a ton of recruits that chose other schools and some of the highly touted ones we did land wound up not panning out for us, getting kicked off the team, or transferring.

Yeah, Carr couldn't recruit with a lick.....

YR. Avg Rival Team Ranking Avg. stars per recruit
2002 16th 3.55
2003 17th 3.82
2004 5th 3.59
2005 6th 3.48
2006 13th 3.63
2007 12th 3.40
2008 10th 3.67
2009RR 8th 3.59
2010 14th 3.21

In the period from 2002 to 2009 Scum actually had a higher ranking than OSU 4 times (2003, 2004, 2005, & 2007)......

 

[Wingate1217]

OSU's rival rankings and average stars per recruit

2002 5th 3.65
2003 41st 3.38
2004 9th 3.24
2005 12th 3.50
2006 12th 3.60
2007 15th 3.80
2008 4th 3.85
2009 3rd 3.76
2010 17th 3.54

 

[mbama1]

I'm not talking quantity, I'm talking percentages. RR put out half as many players per year as his predecessor.
But Carr told me his blown tackle and 75 yard chase of Ringer was one of the best plays he's ever seen. I had to mute the phone until I could stop laughing.
Good athlete, might make a good spinner. I think Barwis is right, they need more big uglies.Individually, stars are a meager predictor. Overall, with entire classes or many put together, they are a pretty good gauge of the incoming talent.

Well, we are on the same wave length in regards to Crable. LOL. He was not good. Excellent pass rusher, incredible athlete, lousy linebacker.

My prediction is that Hawthorne is our starting spinner next year, while Marvin Robinson pushes Mouton at his position for playing time next year.

I am really not that into star-gazing to be honest. I agree that the higher amount of stars on the whole the better the class tends to be, but I really like some of these so called 3*'s we've got.

I really like Ricardo Miller, and I really like three 3*'s from Ohio in the Talbott brothers and Courtney Avery. Terry Talbott is a straight-up beast with a quick first step. I love Terrence as a potential safety, he shows great closing speed and has a willingness to hit. Terrence might never be anything special, but I'll bet any amount of money he'll become a solid safety for us and be in the mix to start once he's a RS Sophomore. Courtney Avery is just a football player. To hell with stars, Avery is gonna be something special IMO. Has that play-maker strand in his DNA, it's something you can't teach. Avery is my favorite pick-ups in this class behind Devin Gardner. He'll be a player wherever they decide to put him.

I also like another 3* from Ohio as a dark-horse type project in DJ Williamson. DJ might be a 3*, but he's got off the charts speed. He's probably the fastest high school kid in all of Ohio. At the very least he's WAY up there in the speed department. Coming off a 3-9 season beggars can't be choosers. We've taken a flier much worse with kids that have less raw talent under Carr. If this kid pans out we'll have one fast son of a gun at WR on our hands.

 

[mbama1]

So do you believe that Rich Rodriguez is a better coach than Lloyd Carr?

Without question I think that Rodriguez is a better coach than Lloyd Carr.

I think he maximizes the talent he has on hand better than Carr did and that players under him show more development year to year than players under Carr did.

Just watching the NFL talent from Michigan the past couple of years has made me sick to my stomach reminding me that under Carr from 2000-2007 we pretty much under-achieved every season outside of '06 and won nothing of consequence except a pair of bowl games over Florida and that we were dominated badly by Ohio State.

 

[Mike80]

Without question I think that Rodriguez is a better coach than Lloyd Carr.

I think he maximizes the talent he has on hand better than Carr did and that players under him show more development year to year than players under Carr did.

Four words for ya:

Ryan Mallet

Justin Boren

Just watching the NFL talent from Michigan the past couple of years has made me sick to my stomach reminding me that under Carr from 2000-2007 we pretty much under-achieved every season outside of '06 and won nothing of consequence except a pair of bowl games over Florida and that we were dominated badly by Ohio State.

2000-2007 Michigan isn't anywhere near the Cooper era.