2009 TSUN News (football only discussion)

[mbama1]

and as much as some of us still hold a grudge against Coop don't insult him with a Dick Rod comparison.

Cooper at his very worst, taking over a talent challenged program in the first few years ('88-'93) NEVER went 3-9 or lost to a [censored]ing 3 win MAC team at home.

3-9 was bad, very bad admittedly, but should anybody have expected anything better than maybe 5-7 best?

Lost Chad Henne, Mike Hart, Adam Kraus, and Jake Long to the graduation/NFL. Justin Boren transferred to Ohio State, and Alex Mitchell quit the team. Mario and Arrington turned pro early. That's 8 starters on offense gone like that. The heir apparent at QB, Ryan Mallett, yeah, he transferred to Arkansas.

Which left us with Steven Threet and Nick Sheridan at QB (OUCH), at WR we were left with Greg Mathews (who is a role player, not a featured WR) and a bunch of inexperience at WR, and at RB we had an oft-injured but talented duo in Brandon Minor and Carlos Brown. We we're also breaking in 4 new starters along the offensive line. They were also trying to learn a drastically different offensive system.

As far as our defense goes, well I just honestly do not think we have been that talented on defense the past 2 years. From that 2008 team, in the 2009 NFL draft only 2 of our defensive players were even drafted, Terrence Taylor in the 4th round and Morgan Trent in the 6th round. Taylor got cut from the Colts recently and Trent is still with the Bengals. Don't ask me how that happened, as I was sure that Taylor would be a beast in the NFL and Trent wouldn't ever get drafted.

Now, on this 2009 defense, can you tell me anybody outside of Brandon Graham and Donovan Warren that looks like they might get drafted into the NFL? Probably only Mike Martin and Craig Roh, both of which were signed by Rich.

I have a lot of faith in Greg Robinson, and I think he'll get things turned around on Defense sooner rather than later. I mean, Robinson has turned Stevie Brown around into by far our best Linebacker in one off-season, if that's not an impressive coaching feat, I don't know what is.

 

[buckeyemania11]

I have a lot of faith in Greg Robinson, and I think he'll get things turned around on Defense sooner rather than later. I mean, Robinson has turned Stevie Brown around into by far our best Linebacker in one off-season, if that's not an impressive coaching feat, I don't know what is.

you cant make chicken salad out of chicken shit

rich rod is spending time bringing in loads of slot WR recruits instead of where the real need is, defense

Robinson isnt going to work wonders with MAC caliber players

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

3-9 was bad, very bad admittedly, but should anybody have expected anything better than maybe 5-7 best?

Actually, yes. No one here (or probably elsewhere outside of the state of Michigan) expected a new coach to come in a force-feed a system for which he did not yet have the appropriate personnel. Carr's worst record during his 13-year tenure as Michigan head coach was 7-5 (once), so Carr never had much of a problem with player turnover. Before DickRod confirmed his insistence on running the spread despite not having the players for it, I would have expected an 8-4 record, plus-or-minus a win/loss.

 

[mbama1]

you cant make chicken salad out of chicken [censored]

rich rod is spending time bringing in loads of slot WR recruits instead of where the real need is, defense

Robinson isnt going to work wonders with MAC caliber players

I think you are over-simplifying things just a little bit.

First of all, we're coming off a 3-9 season, those type of seasons always hurt your next recruiting class the most, and that is what is showing right now.

We aren't finished recruiting and we also aren't completely void of defensive talent in this class. For instance Marvin Robinson is going to be the best linebacker we've had in years when all is said and done IMO. I also really like the defensive class that Rich brought in 2009. As long as they finish strong on defense in '10 and really step up the recruiting in 2011 I think we will be OK.

Actually, yes. No one here (or probably elsewhere outside of the state of Michigan) expected a new coach to come in a force-feed a system for which he did not yet have the appropriate personnel. Carr's worst record during his 13-year tenure as Michigan head coach was 7-5 (once), so Carr never had much of a problem with player turnover. Before DickRod confirmed his insistence on running the spread despite not having the players for it, I would have expected an 8-4 record, plus-or-minus a win/loss.

A few things...

A) I don't ever remember Carr having to deal with that much player turnover, nor that many changes in coaching personnel.

B) Carr never tried to implement a vastly different scheme. His offensive scheme was pretty much the same year to year, which means even though young guys who haven't played didn't have on-field experience, they were still well-versed in the scheme/offense. That's a pretty big factor when talking about this situation as well.

C) Bottom line is the recruiting classes the past few years under Carr were sub-par and there were a ton of misses. We missed out on a ton of recruits that chose other schools and some of the highly touted ones we did land wound up not panning out for us, getting kicked off the team, or transferring.

I don't know, maybe it's just me because I am a Michigan fan I guess, but I don't foresee the death of Michigan football like the Buckeye fans here.

We are still a very young team, I think we've got something north of 60+ some players on scholarship that are either RS Soph., Sophomores, RS Fr. or true freshman, and we will probably sign a full 25 class.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

A few things...

A) I don't ever remember Carr having to deal with that much player turnover, nor that many changes in coaching personnel.

B) Carr never tried to implement a vastly different scheme. His offensive scheme was pretty much the same year to year, which means even though young guys who haven't played didn't have on-field experience, they were still well-versed in the scheme/offense. That's a pretty big factor when talking about this situation as well.

C) Bottom line is the recruiting classes the past few years under Carr were sub-par and there were a ton of misses. We missed out on a ton of recruits that chose other schools and some of the highly touted ones we did land wound up not panning out for us, getting kicked off the team, or transferring.

I don't know, maybe it's just me because I am a Michigan fan I guess, but I don't foresee the death of Michigan football like the Buckeye fans here.

We are still a very young team, I think we've got something north of 60+ some players on scholarship that are either RS Soph., Sophomores, RS Fr. or true freshman, and we will probably sign a full 25 class.

A) I'm sure that Carr did deal with much player loss at one time or another. Now, as far as DickRod having to deal with coaching turnover, he brought that upon himself.

B) Maybe Carr was smart enough not to force-feed a different scheme, and he did a national title and five conferennce titles. He also didn't lead his team to their worst season in school history loss-wise. Not many folks are faulting DickRod for wanting to transistion to the spread, but rather with how he's doing it.

C) I'm pretty sure you've had far more transfers under DickRod's short tenure than in any period under Carr. As far as recruiting is concerned, going by rankings DickRod isn't really doing any better, and at least Carr could recruit defensive players.

Not many, and even fewer Buckeye fans, actually expect the "death of Michigan football". I think that most fans feel that unless DickRod recruits/coaches-up something resembling a defensive unit, Michigan will not return to the upper echelon of the Big Ten.

Your team is indeed young, but the youth can be mis-coached to the point of not reaching their potential.

 

[mbama1]

Not many, and even fewer Buckeye fans, actually expect the "death of Michigan football". I think that most fans feel that unless DickRod recruits/coaches-up something resembling a defensive unit, Michigan will not return to the upper echelon of the Big Ten.

Well my response to that is; have you seen the Big Ten? Not exactly the SEC. Not exactly the WAC. (OK, little bit of a joke there).

Iowa is supposedly one of the top 2 teams in the B10 and we just gave them all they could handle and then some in their own house in a night game and despite turning the ball over 5 times.

I think we will be back in the thick of things in the B10 very soon.

Your team is indeed young, but the youth can be mis-coached to the point of not reaching their potential.

My counter-point to that would be, what makes anybody believe that Rodriguez will "mis-coach" these guys and not help them reach their potential?

Because his track record certainly says otherwise.

People can say whatever they want about his personality or his character, but bottom line the man can coach football.

 

[Merih]

Mbama his track record shows he's not going to defensively coach them up. Offensively maybe. And I don't think you're going to see Ohio State and Penn State leaving the Big Ten the way that Miami and VaTech did the Big East. RRod still has to show alot before he can be called an elite coach.

 

[billmac91]

My counter-point to that would be, what makes anybody believe that Rodriguez will "mis-coach" these guys and not help them reach their potential?

Because his track record certainly says otherwise.

People can say whatever they want about his personality or his character, but bottom line the man can coach football.

My counter to that would be...what makes you say that?

His demonination of the Big East only after BC, Va Tech, and Miami left the conference? Because, before they left for the ACC, his track-record was quite pedestrian.

Or is it his lack of development and players proceeding to the NFL? I absolutely cannot think of a bigger name coach in college, with that bad of a track record in regards to getting players picked on Sunday.

I've said it all along....you can recruit a certain player to WVU without competing against the big boys, and dominate a watered down Big East running the spread. But when you have to recruit against the big boys, and all recruits will hear is "how is that system going to put you in the NFL?" you are in trouble. I just don't think many fans in Big 10 country get scared every time a slot receiver commits to Michigan. I know Ohio State fans were salivating for a chance to watch Sam McGuffie get hit, and go back in this thread and look at the prdicitions in regards to Tate Forcier. Will UM fans be patient enough to let Devin Gardner develop (the only physically ready QB capable of running DRod's offense)? It just feels like a cyclical fail-boat.

Good discussion BTW....hope you stick around as a level-headed UM poster.

 

[mbama1]

Mbama his track record shows he's not going to defensively coach them up. Offensively maybe. And I don't think you're going to see Ohio State and Penn State leaving the Big Ten the way that Miami and VaTech did the Big East. RRod still has to show alot before he can be called an elite coach.

Rodriguez is definitely an offensive minded coach, but those 3-straight 11 win teams at WVU had some very solid defenses under defensive co-ordinator Jeff Casteel.

In fact, in two of those seasons I believe that they had top 20 nationally ranked defenses.

Ryan Mundy actually became a good safety once he transferred to WVU.

Bottom line, I'll take Greg Robinson at Defensive Co-ordinator over any defensive co-ordinator we've ever had.

 

[Barwis]

3-9 was bad, very bad admittedly, but should anybody have expected anything better than maybe 5-7 best?

horseshit. Rich didn't come here to turn um into sparty. Were there flaws? Sure, but these goddammed excuses have to stop.

My shit has more talent than purdue, Toledo and northwestern. Those were inexcusable.

Lost Chad Henne, Mike Hart, Adam Kraus, and Jake Long to the graduation/NFL. Justin Boren transferred to Ohio State, and Alex Mitchell quit the team. Mario and Arrington turned pro early. That's 8 starters on offense gone like that. The heir apparent at QB, Ryan Mallett, yeah, he transferred to Arkansas.

Which left us with Steven Threet and Nick Sheridan at QB (OUCH), at WR we were left with Greg Mathews (who is a role player, not a featured WR) and a bunch of inexperience at WR, and at RB we had an oft-injured but talented duo in Brandon Minor and Carlos Brown. We we're also breaking in 4 new starters along the offensive line. They were also trying to learn a drastically different offensive system.

still more talented as a team than sparty, and certainly more athletic and strong on defense. Too bad we were softer than Mitchell's belly. Adversity hit and we crumbled.

As far as our defense goes, well I just honestly do not think we have been that talented on defense the past 2 years. From that 2008 team, in the 2009 NFL draft only 2 of our defensive players were even drafted, Terrence Taylor in the 4th round and Morgan Trent in the 6th round. Taylor got cut from the Colts recently and Trent is still with the Bengals. Don't ask me how that happened, as I was sure that Taylor would be a beast in the NFL and Trent wouldn't ever get drafted.

fuck that.

Taylor could have been a beast, but he chose to be a whiny pussy.

graham - stud doesn't do him justice. He has more talent than the entire sparty d combined, who consistently outplayed our unit on heart and discipline alone.

Warren, brown, cissoko... Very talented , but where's the discipline, toughness and commitment?

Now, on this 2009 defense, can you tell me anybody outside of Brandon Graham and Donovan Warren that looks like they might get drafted into the NFL? Probably only Mike Martin and Craig Roh, both of which were signed by Rich.

if by signed, you mean inherited from carr, then yes. Rich brewed up a special batch of snake oil for martin though. He was making a fuss about playing in a 3 man line, rr assured him that wasn't happening. These kids eat up whatever we tell them. I told pryor that my firstborn will be half wolf. Why do you think he told Brewster Ann arbor was dirty?

I have a lot of faith in Greg Robinson, and I think he'll get things turned around on Defense sooner rather than later. I mean, Robinson has turned Stevie Brown around into by far our best Linebacker in one off-season, if that's not an impressive coaching feat, I don't know what is.

Greg is a fine coach, but you can't make cheesecake out of manure. Ezeh has stunk up the joint for years, but now mouton's half assing his way into the dung party. That bitch better still be running after letting a gimpy cousins humiliate him like that.

Its no secret we need more defense. The speed players are coming together, including mrob at spinner... But we need some meat. I need me some big uglies to mold into fear mongerers.

What good is the best strength coach if you don't give him talent to work with? Everyone has fast dbs and speed lbs. Its the big boys that can fly to the ball which are hard to find.

Rich better get me Chris rock, trey depriest, and some southern de-DT hybrids or I'm going to tell rita how she really looks in her outfits. Yeesh.

 

[billmac91]

Rodriguez is an offensive coach, but his 3-straight 11 win teams at WVU under Jeff Casteel had some very solid defenses. In fact, in two of those seasons they had top 10 nationally ranked defenses.

Ryan Mundy actually became a good safety once he transferred to WVU.

Bottom line, I'll take Greg Robinson at Defensive Co-ordinator over any defensive co-ordinator we've ever had.

Did Ryan Mundy actually become a good safety, or did he benefit from terrible teams in the Big East? I bet McGuffie actually looks good next year too...

 

[BuckeyeTillIDie]

Bottom line, I'll take Greg Robinson at Defensive Co-ordinator over any defensive co-ordinator we've ever had.

Oh, it seems like only yesterday that Ron English was the next big thing.

 

[Barwis]

Another thing, GP [censored]in' A for this post over on GBW, which was of course mocked and locked. I thought about responding myself, but I'd be labeled another RR hater, even though I've slept in the same bed with him countless times.

I've been here since day one. Migrated from TOS when TGB left. I'm done. The people on this site who are espousing the anti Lloyd Carr venom should be ashamed of themselves. Lloyd is, was and always will be the definition of a Michigan Man. RR is who he is. Lloyd told him when he got the job that he would NEVER comment on his program. Lloyd told him if he EVER heard a comment it was a lie. Why did he say that? Because it is RR"s program, not his.
What comment would you like to hear from Lloyd? Have you heard anything of substance from Martin? NO. Because they aren't involved in the program on a a day to day basis. What is Lloyd supposed to say: "I don't think RR cheats" or "sure RR's kids are doing better in school than any of mine" or "yes I'm thrilled he fired all my coaches, ran off my players and insults my program from day one."
It's RR's program. sink or swim. Don't expect a comment from LC. If you think LC shouldn't go to Iowa( drive on his own dime) to support Michigan you are certifiably insane or still on drugs.
Do any of you wonder why Leach seems to speak for the program now, but had no role for 30 years? He was ostracized by BO because he embarrassed the program and himself. He was personna non grata until RR, who didn't understand the background got here. Leach doesn't speak for Bo, that's for sure.
I want the program to flourish, if RR does well we all win. As LC told me at one point" All we need to do is win, the rest takes care of itself".

You know what UM fans? RR would prefer that two-faced drama queen named Leach would keep his mouth shut. He's not helping the situation, he's just announcing a soap opera to try and weasel his way back into the good graces in AA. We know what you say about us in private, Leach.

If Rich wins a title or two, stays here past his prime, and UM has to bring in a new coach to fix a truckload of problems, do you think Rich is going to be cheerleading for his replacement? Boy, New UM coach sure is doing a swell job. All those areas where we sucked and weren't good enough to get the job done, man he's come in and really turned things around. I really love how he runs his program in direct contrast to the way I ran mine, and negatively recruits against his own predecessor at UM.

The practice bull[censored] and other weekly witchhunts from the detroit media are annoying, but Rich couldn't give two [censored]s about what Lloyd thinks about his program, and he's glad he hasn't spoken a word. Given how many things (that we HATE about Lloyd's approach) we've had to overhaul, I'm sure he doesn't like our way much better. Big fucking deal.


Just win, baby.

 

[mbama1]

His demonination of the Big East only after BC, Va Tech, and Miami left the conference? Because, before they left for the ACC, his track-record was quite pedestrian.

Not true at all.

For arguments sake, let's give Rich a mulligan in his first season at WVU in 2001, where he went 3-8 and lost to everybody he played, much like he did his first year at Michigan.

His next two years ('02 and '03), he beat Virginia Tech and Boston College twice in a row, in the 2002 and 2003 seasons. That's 4-0 against those 2 programs in back-to-back seasons. Pretty good if you ask me.

Yes, he lost to Miami in '02 and '03 (he lost by 2 on the road b/c of a failed 2pt conv in '03), but honestly, he was playing against a freaking stacked deck. Miami was, well, MIAMI back then having gone 46-4 from 2000-2003 (TALK ABOUT RIDICULOUS, and you all were one of only 4 teams to beat them in that time-span...WOW).

Rich's 2003 WVU team won a share of the Big East title and were Co-Champs with BC, Va Tech, and Miami still in the Big East. Rich's 2004 WVU team won a share of the Big East title with BC and VaTech still in the league.

Or is it his lack of development and players proceeding to the NFL? I absolutely cannot think of a bigger name coach in college, with that bad of a track record in regards to getting players picked on Sunday.

I don't think you can blame this on Rich. Fact of the matter, is that West Virgnia as a college never really put players in the NFL, and the entire state of West Virginia only has 3 players born and raised from there that play in the NFL. For instance, the city of Detroit alone has over 40.

Pacman Jones and Chris Henry were on their way to great NFL careers before they self-imploded with off-field issues.

Shaun King played 2 years under Rodriguez and was a 2nd rounder. Hell Pat White became a 2nd rounder. Steve Slaton was a 3rd rounder who is tearing it up in the NFL and in two short years is showing that he'll probably be better in the NFL than any RB that has ever come from Michigan.

I think this lack of placing NFL players is really over-stated. Bottom line is Rich didn't have access to the kind of players he will at Michigan. Take a look at his classes at WVU on the Rivals/Scout databases and then his few at Michigan.

He never came close to signing a defensive player as highly regarded as Justin Turner or Will Campbell. Not even once.

Or an offensive player as highly regarded as Devin Gardner.

Rodriguez has ALWAYS maximized the talent he's had. Players developed under him.

I don't think I can say the same thing about Carr.

There was some MASSIVE underachieving in the latter years and lack of player development under Carr.

Look at Chad Henne for instance. Kids development was nixed in the hands of Scot Loeffler and Mike DeBord. Just look at the touch and accuracy he displays under David Lee and Dan Henning. You know, coaches who actually know WTF they are doing. How many batted balls did you see from Henne in two games as the Dolphins starter? I didn't count one yet. He used to get at least one pass batted at the LOS per game at Michigan. Navarre suffered from the same problem, despite being NEARLY 6-foot-7!

Did Ryan Mundy actually become a good safety, or did he benefit from terrible teams in the Big East? I bet McGuffie actually looks good next year too...

Mundy looked pretty damn good to me against Oklahoma in that BCS game. Better than he EVER looked at Michigan. Shoot, Mundy sucked so bad at Michigan that the phrase "YAM"- Yards After Mundy was coined and used by Michigan fans on message boards all over the interwebz.

Good discussion BTW....hope you stick around as a level-headed UM poster.

Thanks, and right back at you!

 

[mbama1]

Oh, it seems like only yesterday that Ron English was the next big thing.

Greg Robinson has 2 Super Bowl rings as a defensive co-ordinator in the NFL and a National Championship ring as a defensive co-ordinator in college for the Texas Longhorns.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he is probably the best DC we've ever had.