2009 tOSU Offense Discussion

[Mac]

Apart from Terrelle not having a great night (it happens), I think last night proved our O needs an overhaul. I wish Tress would hire a hungry young assistant who is aggressive and aspires to a head coaching job somewhere. (When's the last time an OSU assistant has gotten a head coaching job elsewhere?)

We need a cold-hearted, Florida/USC-like nastiness on the offense. If Tress just gets a second opinion in there with him, someone to bounce ideas off of, on how to make our O nastier and more aggressive, that would make a world of difference.

I'm that guy...PUT ME IN COACH!!! :)

 

[TJnTN]

I'm just surprised now as I look back on it the amount of talent we've gotten on offense considering we don't use anyone to their potential usually.

Vince Young was picked third over all running a read option offense. Pryor while he's not Vince Young has similar traits and should be used to maximize his skills, and passing is not one of those skills more times than not. I'm just confused why we let Troy run around for two years and now we have Pryor and we're trying to make him Peyton Manning. Maybe when Pryor's a senior he can do what he's trying to do now (pocket passer) but right now his main skill is his legs. I'm not saying QB draw every other play but he's got to be going for 50 yards a game. Especially considering I don't see too many 200+ yard passing games in the near future. We got to get the offense from SOMEWHERE. It's simple, if it ain't coming through the air we got to make up for the lack of passing on the ground.

Because of this approach it's going to make that PSU game more difficult than it needs to be. Probably even the Illinois/UM games too.

I know what you're saying.....but just didn't seem like it was available last night. They weren't going to let Pryor beat them with his legs.....and it worked. Most teams we play throughout the year......that doesn't work but with a team like USC with that much talent....Pryor was going to have to take it to them through the air and it just didn't happen.

 

[MaliBuckeye]

Maybe this reflects what some were saying about TP's passing ability, but why didn't we throw to the uncovered slot receiver? The safeties were giving them 12 yard of cushion, and it the Trojans didn't seem to be falling back underneath it.

Just curious- sorry if this is the wrong place to post these humble reflections/rants.

 

[EdgarStyles]

I know many people on here are critical of Tressel's playcalling, but I think that playcalling tends to be overrated. You can call the perfect play, but if your players don't execute it won't do you much good. It's not to say that playcalling isn't important, but I think there are bigger issues with tOSU's offense than playcalling.

I think the main problem with the offense is the lack of a general identity. tOSU tries to blend a bunch of different offenses together, and they really don't execute any of them very well. For example, they may be in the pistol trying to run the read option on one possession, but switch to pro-style the next. Then later in the game, they're running the Patriots' shotgun passing attack. This sounds good in theory, as they can tailor the offense to their recruits and specific defenses they are facing. In reality; however, this doesn't work very well. I think the offense would be much better if Tressel (or a new offensive coordinator) picked one style of offense and really tried to perfect it.

One thing I don't know is how complicated the offense actually is. Maybe someone closer to the program can tell me, but does tOSU have 25 different ways to run the ball off tackle, or throw a slant route? Some of the best offenses today (Meyer's and Leech's) appear to be complicated but are actually pretty simple. This isn't to say they don't throw in specific wrinkles for each opponent, but they are able to do this without making their offense endlessly complicated.

Another place tOSU's offense can improve is general player development. They get the same amount of raw talent that other elite programs get (Florida, Texas, USC), but it seems like they develop that talent at a slower pace than those programs do. I'm not saying that they don't develop talent (the improvement Troy made during his tenure was remarkable), it just seems like it takes them 3-4 years to develop talent, while at other elite programs it takes them 1-2.

This following is completely baseless speculation, but do you guys think that since tOSU runs multiple offensive philosophies it hinders player development? You only get so much practice time, unless you're Michigan. If you spend time working on multiple types of offenses, it means less time for players to work on fundamentals.

All of this is my opinion and it's probably horribly wrong; but, this is the reason God invented internet message boards.

 

[Jaxbuck]

We've seen these same debates play out a million times.

Is it the play calling/talent/execution?

If its an isolated case like one game or hell, even one whole season then fine...that's a legitimate debate. We are in year 9 now. Its long past time to split hairs over execution or play calling. Ultimately the coaching staff is responsible no matter what the problem is.

Coaches are responsible for identifying, recruiting and developing the talent. Coaches are responsible for developing and calling a good game plan. Coaches are responsible for getting their players prepared to go out and execute the plan. I can understand the "execution" camp if one player or even one class has execution issues no matter what they've been taught. The players have changed many times the past 9 years, the offensive braintrust has remained constant. It's not the players imo.

I'm not sure exactly which of the 3 it is, most likely always a combination of all 3, but the end result is what counts. The end results are insufficient changes should be made.

 

[strohs]

We've seen these same debates play out a million times.

Is it the play calling/talent/execution?

If its an isolated case like one game or hell, even one whole season then fine...that's a legitimate debate. We are in year 9 now. Its long past time to split hairs over execution or play calling. Ultimately the coaching staff is responsible no matter what the problem is.

Coaches are responsible for identifying, recruiting and developing the talent. Coaches are responsible for developing and calling a good game plan. Coaches are responsible for getting their players prepared to go out and execute the plan. I can understand the "execution" camp if one player or even one class has execution issues no matter what they've been taught. The players have changed many times the past 9 years, the offensive braintrust has remained constant. It's not the players imo.

I couldnt possibly agree more.

 

[TheIronColonel]

I don't know that I agree at all. In the past, I think there has been legitimate problems with the playcalling. For example, there were games in which we got away from the run (even though we average >5.0 ypc) because we couldn't stop the other team's offense. Passing badly won't keep you in the game. However, the fact of the matter is that last night we couldn't effectively pass, regardless of the playcall. We ran the ball effectively from time to time, but not with any consistency. None of that is the fault of the coaching staff.

So it's somewhat misleading to say that this is year 9 of the same problem. The problem at large is the offense, but the cause isn't the same from year to year or game to game. Would I like to see some changes? Yeah, I would. I'd like to get away from using the inside run so much and maybe see some zone-read type stuff replace it. The passing game can still be built on play action effectively, but I can't remember having success with the inside run in years in which we haven't had Clarett or Wells - and those guys were exceptional, unusual backs. If it takes a freak of nature to succeed, maybe you're doing it wrong. But I don't think it's the coaching staff, I think it's what they've stubbornly stuck to. These guys identify talent, recruit, and teach well. They do 95% of the things right. Unfortunately, the last 5% is costing them big time.

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

It's not the players imo.

If it's not the players, how do you explain the offensive in '05 verses the offense in '06, when Smith and Teddy really matured during that period? I agree that the play-designs are not the best, and it's up to the coaches to objectively judge whether a player is up to the task of running a particular play, given his skill level and experience. Maybe too much was thrown at Pryor, and he couldn't handle it all.

That Pryor is already where Smith was at as a passer is pretty good to me. I think by mid-season we should have a much more polished passing offense.

 

[Tlangs]

Hopefully the good that will come out of the game last night is that JT will realize that TP isn't ready to sit back in a deep drop and scan the field. Give him 1 or 2 reads and then tell him to run. TP is more dangerous when running out of a called pass play than anything else.

 

[Jaxbuck]

If it's not the players, how do you explain the offensive in '05 verses the offense in '06, when Smith and Teddy really matured during that period? I agree that the play-designs are not the best, and it's up to the coaches to objectively judge whether a player is up to the task of running a particular play, given his skill level and experience. Maybe too much was thrown at Pryor, and he couldn't handle it all.

That Pryor is already where Smith was at as a passer is pretty good to me. I think by mid-season we should have a much more polished passing offense.

About 1.5 years of an offense that wasn't the Achilles heel of the team.

About 7.5 years (I'm gonna go ahead and chalk '09 up) of the offense being a land anchor.

Something is at play there besides a lack of execution from one particular kid or group. Its spread out over too many years. The only constant is Tressel and Bollman as the offensive brain trust.

 

[FrancisSoyer]

If it's not the players, how do you explain the offensive in '05 verses the offense in '06, when Smith and Teddy really matured during that period? I agree that the play-designs are not the best, and it's up to the coaches to objectively judge whether a player is up to the task of running a particular play, given his skill level and experience. Maybe too much was thrown at Pryor, and he couldn't handle it all.

That Pryor is already where Smith was at as a passer is pretty good to me. I think by mid-season we should have a much more polished passing offense.

Eeee...yea, I disagree. TP will be fine if he relaxes a bit though. He seems so high-strung in big games. Plus, he's only a sophomore.

 

[ant80]

But I don't think it's the coaching staff, I think it's what they've stubbornly stuck to. These guys identify talent, recruit, and teach well. They do 95% of the things right. Unfortunately, the last 5% is costing them big time.

I am of the opinion that if there's something the someone is "stubbornly stuck to" bringing them down,it IS the person's fault. Therefore, I do place the blame on the coaching staff.

Einstein: Change is the only constant.

If someone is resistant to change, it WILL bring them down.

I tend to look at everything from a historical perspective, so I am going to mention this incident. I read this incident in a book. Take the example of Woody and Art. When Bo was recruiting Art, his dad told Bo that Woody promised him the starting job his freshman season. Bo KNEW that Woody wouldn't do that, or thought he did. After this incident, he thought Art's father was lying and stopped recruiting Art, who eventually went to tOSU. Lo and behold, Art starts his true freshman season and continues to throw and throw and throw in a loss against PSU. I interpret that as Woody's acceptance of a need for change. He realized that times were changing. The game (the game in general, not just THE GAME) was changing. New ideas were filling in. The days of claiming there are three things that can happen on a forward pass, and two of them are bad, were past. He knew that he had to adapt. Or he wouldn't have the claim of being the best, or coaching the best team. I always thought that this was the incident that stamped tOSU's move away from three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust. Unfortunately Woody never saw the fruition of his path due to that fateful punch. If Woody, at such a late stage in his career, embraced a change of such magnitude, they why can't Tressel?

This has been the Achiles heel of the team from the beginning (except the stellar 2006 season). If we can't maintain good offensive production even in a weak Big10, that is a cause for concern.

 

[matcar]

If it's not the players, how do you explain the offensive in '05 verses the offense in '06, when Smith and Teddy really matured during that period? I agree that the play-designs are not the best, and it's up to the coaches to objectively judge whether a player is up to the task of running a particular play, given his skill level and experience. Maybe too much was thrown at Pryor, and he couldn't handle it all.

That Pryor is already where Smith was at as a passer is pretty good to me. I think by mid-season we should have a much more polished passing offense.

Pryor may have a higher ceiling than Troy has, but he's not where Troy was at all. Pryor was indecisive and when he did make decisions they were frequently telegraphed and by the 3rd quarter even I knew Posey was going to get it without watching the play. Meanwhile, under duress, his footwork was...missing. TP can be a great passer, but he's not yet.

I wonder why it's so hard for people to acknowledge the weaknesses of the staff. This staff does so much right, but it seems "OK" to me to also acknowledge the struggles. While USC may not be the measuring stick for this offense, it still seems like there's plenty of long term evidence to suggest that the offense has been a weak link in the Buckeye train.

 

[dragurd]

The offense as a whole looked pretty good. There were just some things that need cleaned up. We had receivers running open vs USC TP either was off target on the throw or didn't see them. He's been tight seemingly putting a lot of pressure on himself ever since Penn ST last year in the marquee games. However our insistence on running boom off takle on slow developing plays on 2nd/3rd and short ha me a little befuddled.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

I have a real hard time with this discussion.

1. Many point to the ranking of our low offense. This doesn't bother me, we run less plays, than other teams, we run and pass in balance, we run lots of playclock. So this argument holds no weight in my book.

2. Tress doesn't adapt to change...Once again this bothers me some...When Smith took the reigns of the offense we saw a totally different offense. He has recruited different type of athletes...The smaller type receivers with speed, he put in the shot-ginn offense...Keep in mind I am not saying he is an offensive Genious...I still go back to Miami in 2002 when he had them completely off balance.

3. Execution...This is a tough question for me as well...I understand the running plays, but truly there are only a couple ways you can run the ball. You line up in the I, singleback, Shotgun, and you either do the dive, lead with someone in the hole, trap, toss it outside...With this said we do see the Power play quite often, it is back to the question of execution...we knew against Navy they were going to option left option right, and we couldn't stop, because they executed. With as many times as we run the power it should work...Why isn't it working? To me it is execution.

4. Playcalling...This is another one...Tress called a pretty good game the other night. He surprised me with a couple calls...he broke tendencies...The only thing I question is there are lots of weapons, we just need them in a way that we have some sort of identity. It is almost like he trys to get creative at times, and either it is something we have not really worked on or we don't execute and he doesn't come back to it. I think we almost get too complicated trying to outthink, and then we oversimplify with the running plays. Think about USC in how they put a mcknight out at receiver and just run a short pass to him, or playaction to fullback who is an athlete.

5. Oline...The talent level here has been up and down. It is getting better. We have not had drive blockers that you just line up behind and smash the defense in the mouth. Obviously at times us being predictable hurts this,

With all that said. I think Tress could use a true offensive coordinator. I feel he has his hands in everything which is good, but at some point being in everything is too much. Delegation is a tough skill to learn for a leader, but if he could he could sit back and really watch this team go to the next level. I am not talking a whole new scheme change either. Just someone that is a 100% dedicated to this task.

I think the biggest challenges we face on offense are scoring touchdowns in the redzone. It is almost like Tress wants to make sure we come away with the field goal as well as try and score a td.

And Short yardage. We struggle to pick up short yardage, because 90% of the time it is the same play.

We just lack sustainability. We have a decent drive going, we stall due to third down play...Or we get in the redzone and settle for the field goal.

Let me preface I don't want to see Texas Tech offense, I don't want to see Florida offense. I want to see an offense that creates mismatches. Makes things easier on us.

Look at teams like USC, FLorida, etc. Against shitty teams they know that their athletes are better than theirs. So if they ever get one on one on the outside they beat them deep. They know their guys can get to the corner easier so they run outside in space. Obviously they do alot of their base offense, but their base offense works better when they strike fear into defenses and make them play zone, and not crowd the box because if they don't they go deep and score easily. Also about keeping the defense on their heels.

Obviously lots to digest there, and I don't think we drop Tress, I don't think Bollman should be fired, I think we bring in an offensive coordinator who takes the reigns and we find ways to score tds instead of Fgs and convert short yardage plays and use our athletes in situations where they are more likely to succeed.