2008 tOSU QB discussion (official thread)

[MililaniBuckeye]

I disagree only on one point Zwick was not a sixth year senior. Boeckman knows this offense better than anyone outside the coaching staff. You spend the better part of a decade with a guy, your gonna have a sense of loyalty. On top of that we all know how Tressel loves his seniors.

Performance trumps everything, including seniority. If seniority was the only thing, then Mo Wells (senior) would be the starting tailback. Zwick knew the offense extremely well himself, but that didn't keep Smith for jumping over him as starter.

 

[mercer_buckeye]

Zwick knew the offense extremely well himself, but that didn't keep Smith for jumping over him as starter.

How can you compare a sophmore's knowledge of an offense with that of a sixth year senior. Esp. a quarterback

 

[jimotis4heisman]

I'm sorry, but TB just hasn't shown that he can take care of the football. All the TB supporters love to tell us that the coaches told him to underthrow the long ball. I've only read a first-hand account of that mentioned once. To me, that excuse is good for a 1-game gaffe, no more.

Let's go back and, thinking of the fundamentals of Tresselball, see which strategy doesn't fit:
Make good decisions with the football, the best throw might be one into the stands.
The punt is the most important play in football.
Throw the ball to the other team, repeatedly.
Play stifling defense.
Run the ball and control the clock.
Tailor your game plan to your players' skills.


For those comparing TB and TS, attempts per interception:
TS '04: 40.66
TS '05: 59.25
TS '06: 51.83
TB '07: 21.35

since we are talking tos
fumbles-lost
tb 2007 8-3
ts 2006 6-3
ts 2005 11-6
ts 2004 2-1

Now let's compare that to a performance that DID warrant getting pulled. What follows are JZ's numbers from the first 6 games of '04.

____________att__comp__int__yds____td____efficiency
Cinci_______26____14____2___213_____1_____119.969
Marshall____30____18____2___324_____3_____170.387
NCSU________21____10____0____73_____0______76.819
NW__________38____18____1___211_____1______97.432
Wisky_______31____15____0___125_____0______82.258
Iowa________14_____6____1____74_____0______72.971
Total______160____81____6__1020_____5_____106.988


Those last 4 were decent teams in '04; but they were not in a class with the roster of future NFL regulars that LSU put on the field in January.

Would JZ have kept his job if he had the 2008 offensive line to work behind? We'll never know, but it is entirely possible.

What is considerably more clear is whether TB will lay an egg that looks anything like the numbers above while working behind the 2008 offensive line and with Beanie Wells to hand the ball to rather than Lydell Ross. I'll give you three guesses and I'll spot you the 'N' and the 'O'.


Another thing that is painfully clear from the above table is that JZ was not benched for his turnovers. As Mili has reminded us, he wasn't benched just for his injury either. Tressel said it was time for a change, and it obviously wasn't about the interceptions. It was about the lack of production.

Less than 6 yards per attempt in 4 straight games against slightly better than mediocre competition is a long-long way from getting it done. It wasn't all JZ's fault; but those numbers are what it takes to get pulled.

very true and interesting. troy to starter also coincided with downing and barton to rg/rt
i felt the downing/barton line was superior dating back to the marshall game of that eyar

Let me address each area:

PSU game, no INTs against a tough defense...won the game 21-10.
Purdue was a bad game, but we all know how he rebounded in a big way the next week


You really can't be serious in using the Texas game...it was his first live game in nearly nine months and was shuffled in and out against the eventual national champs.
PSU was horrid playing conditions (far worse than at Michigan last season), and no one had a good game on offense on either team that night.


Four INTs in four games isn't six INTs in three games.
The Florida game was hardly his fault, with Barton and Boone playing matador with the Florida DEs...no QB could've done anything.
The PSU another was in another deluge, and yet he still managed to make a Heisman signature play with his scrambling TD bomb.
Part of his shaky game at Illinois is that JT shut the offense down in the second half after we were up 17-0 at halftime, and Illinois started stacking the line.

Every QB has an off game or two during the season, even Heisman Trophy winners. However, when your QB clearly regresses at the end of the season, against the most important competition, then there is cause for concern.

Yeah, Nebraska rocked in september. Barely survived against Wake Forest's backup QB, and needed late game miracles to overcome Ball State. But that one game against Nevada is probably all that matters.

i was at every game mentioned here minus one.

like i said i dont factor factors. each one of these maybe valide, but i also say that if tressel shuts down the offense thiers a reason to it, sure it maybe that the other team cant beat him unless he beats himself. but, these excuses are as poor as anyone that can be made for boeckman, zwick, krenzel, mcmullen, trombitis, otis, casindy and whoever else may have taken one snap at qb.

 

[jimotis4heisman]

Boeckman's last three games:

Illinois
13-23 156 yds 3 INT 0 TD
Clearly just a bad game.

Michigan
7-13 50 yds 1 INT 0 TD
Weather clearly a factor. Shut down the offense and pounded it with Beanie. I hardly consider this a bad game for Boeckman.

LSU
15-26 208 yds 2 INT 2 TD
Bad game, turnovers were a problem, but Boeckman was sacked 5 times, just as many times as Smith was against Florida in '06, and Boeckman's stat line here is infinitely superior to Troy's abysmal showing in '06.

So, two out of three of those games can be explained away in exactly the same way you explained away Smith's poor showings, leaving Illinois as a bad game, plain and simple. I would hardly call that a clear regression.

i dont factor factors
and to make myself visually unbiased this is as redic as milis list of excuses...

Did you even watch The Game? Seriously. Todd fumbled the ball--twice--and in consecutive possesions no less. He was clearly rattled after that. His INT was a wounded condor. No one on Michigan fumbled the ball despite the conditions.

As for "Boeckman's stat line here is infinitely superior to Troy's abysmal showing in '06", try watching the games next time. LSU put no where near the pressure on Boeckman that Florida did on Troy...not even close.

maybe some of that is to todds credit, troy single handly invented the 13 step drop and just about danced his way on to dancing with the stars with the glendale 23695623956239562395623 step...

I'll take those odds just because I can see it happening.. likely, no. possible, yes.


Err.. thats called progressing. You are supposed to be better at the end of the year.. thats been a staple (IMO) of JTs teams at tOSU.

For example, Coopers teams continually lost to scUM and their bowl game.

Tressels teams seem to peak against scUM and carry the momentum into bowling.

I rather TB have a slow start and continually get better than start off blazing and then struggle the final 3 games.

tressel has lost his last two bowl game and his first year lost to usc in a bowl game. that brings his record to 4-3 in bowl games.

The question also is, will Boeckman perform like he did in the latest big games? If Boeckman plays as skittish during the first few games as he did his last three games, I think JT will do what he did in 2004, ala Zwick. If Boeckman chucks up some INTs against the likes of YSU and Ohio, don't be surprised if he gives Bauserman or Henton a shot at USC. "Healthy" means squat if you're ineffective.

more than a couple of ifs. i think we can all hope that if never happens if its for the best thing if its not then i hope if happens before if catches up to this team if we think we are as good as we think we are...

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

How can you compare a sophmore's knowledge of an offense with that of a sixth year senior. Esp. a quarterback

Uh, since Zwick was a 3rd-year sophomore at the time, that's how. By the way, although Boeckman's a grayshirt, this is still only his fifth involved in the offense...Zwick was in his third. So there's a two-year gap instead of the four-year gap you're implying. And there comes a point where you really can't learn the playbook much more...as thick as our playbook is, there are a finite amount of plays, and thus a knowledge saturation point.

You folks can argue, debate, justify, compare, rationalize, blah blah blah, all you want, but that does not change the fact that Boeckman regressed at the end of the season. Period. That's above dispute. At the end of the season, he was no where near the QB he was at mid-season. First 10 games: 23 TDs, 8 INTs, no losses; Last 3 games: 2 TDs, 6 INTs, two losses.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

maybe some of that is to todds credit, troy single handly invented the 13 step drop and just about danced his way on to dancing with the stars with the glendale 23695623956239562395623 step...

You can't seriously be implying that our implosion against Florida was due to Troy's "happy feet" and not Florida's DL...

 

[jimotis4heisman]

Uh, since Zwick was a 3rd-year sophomore at the time, that's how. By the way, although Boeckman's a grayshirt, this is still only his fifth involved in the offense...Zwick was in his third. So there's a two-year gap instead of the four-year gap you're implying. And there comes a point where you really can't learn the playbook much more...as thick as our playbook is, there are a finite amount of plays, and thus a knowledge saturation point.

You folks can argue, debate, justify, compare, rationalize, blah blah blah, all you want, but that does not change the fact that Boeckman regressed at the end of the season. Period. That's above dispute. At the end of the season, he was no where near the QB he was at mid-season. First 10 games: 23 TDs, 8 INTs, no losses; Last 3 games: 2 TDs, 6 INTs, two losses.

could i dispute the best three teams played were not the best three teams we played?

or

2 of the 3 best teams we played were the last three teams?

 

[buckeyes_rock]

I think the we all agree that TB has his issues. But I just don't see JT setting him down--the alternatives have talent but are way too unproven. I don't even think a 3 int game will matter--I think Todd will be the starter barring injury. Now maybe the #2 gradually gets more snaps, but TB is the starter. That's just what my gut says.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

could i dispute the best three teams played were not the best three teams we played?

or

2 of the 3 best teams we played were the last three teams?

Doesn't matter. A QB that goes 2TD/6 INT with two losses in the last three games, regardless of how good those opponents are, deserves serious scrutiny.

If we were talking about another team's QB under the exact same circumstances, folks here would be ripping him, saying how he choked. But, since it's the returning starter for Ohio State, folks want to rationalize it all away.

 

[jimotis4heisman]

You can't seriously be implying that our implosion against Florida was due to Troy's "happy feet" and not Florida's DL...

no doubt the gators dline gets credit, so does the d cor and the gator staff. blame can go to troy, the oline, backs, receivers, the osu staff. you have a guy who was what 17lbs or something like that heavier than he was 6 weeks earlier, people laughing and joking when its getting hung on you. that being said i think you are oversimplifying...

troy and todd both played roles in games they lost. they both share blame with 84 other scholarship athletes and the staff. why do i say that, well if the staff felt some other player could have made a difference be it at qb, tackle, rb, wr etc they would have put him in there, they would have made the move, if they didnt make the move or made the wrong move then its there fault. if they didnt have the horses to run the race its there fault.

theirs a lot of blame to go around, nobody ever seems to want it.

 

[jimotis4heisman]

Doesn't matter. A QB that goes 2TD/6 INT with two losses in the last three games, regardless of how good those opponents are, deserves serious scrutiny.

If we were talking about another team's QB under the exact same circumstances, folks here would be ripping him, saying how he choked. But, since it's the returning starter for Ohio State, folks want to rationalize it all away.

i agree but

mili do you agree with one or both of those two statements?

just for my personal knowledge.

 

[powerlifter]

Doesn't matter. A QB that goes 2TD/6 INT with two losses in the last three games, regardless of how good those opponents are, deserves serious scrutiny.

If we were talking about another team's QB under the exact same circumstances, folks here would be ripping him, saying how he choked. But, since it's the returning starter for Ohio State, folks want to rationalize it all away.

I totally agree. If it was a qb anywhere else in the country people would be thrashing him let alone questioning his playing time.Troy played well in big games and TB hasn't. Aside from the national title game(w/Troy) they aren't close.The people building him up for heisman are the same ones thrashing Tebow. There is no comparison there either. Here comes some red for me for making a true statement.....Prove me wrong on the field and i'll be happy to say so.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

The people building him up for heisman are the same ones thrashing Tebow.

Please explain.

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

I still maintain that with a healthy Chris Wells, the QB position really shouldn't be an issue. If we don't try to get too cute and throw downfield every time we pass midfield, it won't be an issue. If we don't try to throw on 3rd and 3, it won't be an issue. If we are smart and play it safe field-position wise, it won't be an issue. The only way this becomes an issue is when the coaches try to win a game with Boeckman and not Wells or the defense.

 

[jimotis4heisman]

I totally agree. If it was a qb anywhere else in the country people would be thrashing him let alone questioning his playing time.Troy played well in big games and TB hasn't. Aside from the national title game(w/Troy) they aren't close.The people building him up for heisman are the same ones thrashing Tebow. There is no comparison there either. Here comes some red for me for making a true statement.....Prove me wrong on the field and i'll be happy to say so.

i think this myth may have been debunkified earlier in the thread about troy...