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2007 Preseason and Regular season Polls

BengalsAndBucks;948058; said:
These rankings are unbelievable. Sure, USF and Kentucky have better records, but can any of the voters say with a straight face that they think those two teams are actually better than OU and UF?

We'll find out on 10/20 if UK is better than UF... the game is being played in Lexington.
 
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bkochmc;948125; said:
We'll find out on 10/20 if UK is better than UF... the game is being played in Lexington.
Are they better than South Carolina?
Three big tests back to back weeks.

This week is their second big test. Travel game to South Carolina could easily burst Kentucky's bubble.

Next week they face LSU at home :yow2:
then you get the the tilt against UF.

We may know much more about UK well before they face UF.
 
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BengalsAndBucks;948058; said:
These rankings are unbelievable. Sure, USF and Kentucky have better records, but can any of the voters say with a straight face that they think those two teams are actually better than OU and UF?

Maybe Florida would beat USF, but right now they have EARNED a higher ranking from play on the field. They are undefeated, they beat a ranked West Virgina team, and they won at Auburn, who won at Florida.

To vote Florida above USF now is to ignore what's happened in actual games. The rankings should not be a Las Vegas wagering guide for which team would beat which other team, or a prediction of how the teams will rank at the end of the season (except for the preseason poll); they should be a listing of teams based on how they've performed in the season-to-date.
 
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sandgk;948127; said:
Are they better than South Carolina?
Three big tests back to back weeks.

This week is their second big test. Travel game to South Carolina could easily burst Kentucky's bubble.

Next week they face LSU at home :yow2:
then you get the the tilt against UF.

We may know much more about UK well before they face UF.
I was just pointing out the teams BengalsAndBucks mentioned... their next 3 games have to be one of the toughest 3-game stretches this year. If they make it through 2-1 I'll be very impressed.
 
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martinss01;946607; said:
4. tOSU - good, but very young team. good chance we drop one of our last 3. the end of the season will be murder. injuries or simply the big ten grind could cause us to drop one.

Injuries and the "big ten grind" applies to our opponents as well...
 
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billmac91;946286; said:
I just wanted to congratulate Kirk Herbstreit on his top 5 of:

1. LSU
2. USC
3. Cal
4. OSU
5. Oregon???

good stuff....shouldn't Penn St be in there somewhere??

Here is his vote this week.

1LSU 2Southern Cal 3California 4Ohio St. 5Oregon 6South Florida 7Wisconsin 8Boston College 9Kentucky 10Florida
 
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BB73;948226; said:
Maybe Florida would beat USF, but right now they have EARNED a higher ranking from play on the field. They are undefeated, they beat a ranked West Virgina team, and they won at Auburn, who won at Florida.

To vote Florida above USF now is to ignore what's happened in actual games. The rankings should not be a Las Vegas wagering guide for which team would beat which other team, or a prediction of how the teams will rank at the end of the season (except for the preseason poll); they should be a listing of teams based on how they've performed in the season-to-date.

I disagree. I think that the polls should be a ranking of the best teams in college football, not a listing of best achievements so far. In a list of achievements, I would put USF above UF too. But in a list of achievements I would put a lot of teams, including USF and UK, above us. But in a ranking of the best teams, there is no way.
 
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BengalsAndBucks;948515; said:
I disagree. I think that the polls should be a ranking of the best teams in college football, not a listing of best achievements so far. In a list of achievements, I would put USF above UF too. But in a list of achievements I would put a lot of teams, including USF and UK, above us. But in a ranking of the best teams, there is no way.
I know the derivative analysis doesn't work, really... but the same Auburn that just beat UF got beaten by USF, even in spite of botching no less than 4 FGs. I have no problem at all with USF being in front of UF.
 
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I support bkb on this one. As much as I am suspicious of how good the Big East really is, and I think it is weaker than the Big Ten regardless of what I am reading, USF beat two teams that we know are playing at a high level. Florida didn't.

By the end of the season, that relative ranking could well change.
 
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The problem with any personal ranking system is determining criteria. Do you:

- Rank them based on how they have performed and looked at "their best"?
- Rank based on accomplishments to date?
- Hypothetical matchup on a neutral field?
- How you think they will finish?
- How good they will be when the live up to their potential?
- What is the cumulative talent that they on the field?

I think that people use all of these, and all are flawed to a degree if used exclusively or if too much emphasis is placed on one over the others.

Certainly, a team at their best has shown you something. Appalachian State showed us their best, but how often will they play at that level?

USF has probably accomplished as much to date as anyone, but when we get to hypothetical matchups, almost no one outside of the Tampa metro area would pick them over USC, LSU or OSU. Accomplishment ranking means more later in the season, when teams have more games under their belts. What do you do in the first few weeks? Say that OSU is "better" than USC because of the margins against Washington? I'm not sure I'd buy that logic.

Of course, hypothetical matchups are just that. Hypothetically, Miami beats Ohio State by three touchdowns in the Fiesta Bowl in some people's eyes. Imagining a matchup is just a guess. USF might just beat one of the top 3-4 teams. They also might lose by four scores.

The least legitimate criteria I think is predicting how teams will finish. That's not a ranking, that's a prognostication. "Oh, we'll rank WVU fourth because they have an easy schedule and will probably win out." Hello??? That makes ZERO sense. People still do it, though. We can only hope those people write blog polls and aren't actual Harris voters.

The potential argument is pretty interesting. Some teams never reach their potential, while others peak early. I would argue that the 2002 Ohio State team deserved (and got) a lot of potential votes. The close wins over questionable teams belied the fact that the Buckeyes were loaded with talent, and could play up (or down) to any opponent.

Potential is also related to talent, or is at least a pretty similar argument. A good example of teams deserving loads of talent points would be 2005 USC and 2005 Texas. The same thing goes or 2006 Ohio State. All of those teams played up to their potential, and the talent levels were ridiculous.

Of course, instead of a thoughtful evaluation of a team's merits, what we have is a "win-and-advance" system where you start with a preseason ranking and move up as you win and others lose, occasionally passing up a team on those lucky weekends where you have a statement win and they have a lackluster one, or better yet, you wound up on ABC at 3:30 and they wound up on the B10 network.

Back to the topic at hand, where should Ohio State be? I can see anything between #1 and #3 for now, because from what I have seen, the Bucks are more talented than Cal, and have a defense that I think would keep a game with USC or LSU tight. Between USC, LSU and OSU, you could put them in any random order and make a decent case for it. We are slightly lacking in the accomplishments department, so I can see not being #1. Our current #4 ranking is merely an artifact of where we started preseason and nothing more.
 
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BrutusBobcat;949293; said:
The problem with any personal ranking system is determining criteria. Do you:

- Rank them based on how they have performed and looked at "their best"?
- Rank based on accomplishments to date?
- Hypothetical matchup on a neutral field?
- How you think they will finish?
- How good they will be when the live up to their potential?
- What is the cumulative talent that they on the field?

Good comments.

I'll just say that "overall performance to date" has a slightly different meaning than "accomplishments to date", and to me, it's the preferred method.
 
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BB73;949338; said:
Good comments.

I'll just say that "overall performance to date" has a slightly different meaning than "accomplishments to date", and to me, it's the preferred method.

Yes, there's a shade of meaning there. Performance to date implies consistency and high level of play, regardless of opponent quality. Accomplishment rewards teams (like USF) for wins of significance.

As an example, OSU rode that early win over Texas in Austin for several weeks as the main claim to the #1 spot. I'd argue that so far this year, LSU's performance has been excellent, but that they really haven't accomplished a whole lot. By your criteria, they're deserving of being ranked higher than they would using an accomplishments criteria.

Really, I just find it interesting all of the different ways we can look at what it means to be #4 versus #3 or what have you. Despite the fact that it's subjective, there's still some meaning in there. No one thinks that USC is the 10th best team in the country right now, for example, and no one is under the illusion anymore that Michigan is a top 5 team, so there's a little method to the madness when it all averages out.
 
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BrutusBobcat;952117; said:
Sagarin is the first poll out this week, and has the Bucks at #2. My guess is that Tellshow's BCS projections will have them at #2 overall as well.
I wouldn't be too sure. See the BCS Projections thread - some of the computer rankings are not out and the Buckeyes were as low as #9 in at least one accessible poll before last night's game. If that isn't the only low BCS computer ranking they may not be a #2.

EDIT and Dryden pointed out - in Sagarin the ELO-CHESS had the Buckeyes at #8 before the Purdue game. Now they are at #6 using ELO-CHESS.
 
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