2005 Pre-Season Chatter

[MililaniBuckeye]

Honestly, you can put up the ratings and stats all you want about the Marshall and Okie St. games. The stat that stands out the most to me based upon the flow of each game is 2 ugly interceptions at costly times, and 0 interceptions. The ratings are meaningless, because they can be misleading. And that only confirms to me that Zwick is the type of qb that is going to need a leash.

Furthermore, if the Marshall game is Zwick's best game, where was the improvement? Do we really have much to look forward to with him starting if he peaked in his second start as a collegiate qb?

Yo, StadiumDork, did you even see his first half at Marshall? Did you even read the part where I said the OL was shit for the Marshall game (which it was). The OL was far, far better for him in the Alamo Bowl. The guy's QB rating was 170 despite the two INTs.

One thing you have to take into account is that Zwick threw two passes that jacked up those Yards per attempt... one was a very nice ball thrown to Holmes for 80 yards and the other was a decent throw that Holme reeled in for I think somewhere around 40 yards. Touchdowns and passing yards are great but what he did agains Oky St. was manage the game and not make mistakes. Something he didn't do against Marshall, and almost cost us the game with two costly turnovers. Granted he did lead a comeback. He played good against marshall no doubt about that, but IMO he played GREAT against Oky St.

Hard to manage a game when the opposing DL is in your backfield half the game, as it was in the Marshall game. Keep in mind that not only did Zwick throw two picks, but we also fumbled the ball away twice (one for a TD), so it wasn't like Zwick almost gave the game away himself, like many of you are implying.

Well it seems everybody except Milli thinks the Marshall game isn't Zwick's BEST game in the era of TRESSEL error free football.

2 INT's clearly having an effect. NOTICE the score of both games. INTs allow the opponenet back into the game....essentially giving away the game. That to me isn't a stellar performance.

I would hardly consider you, bukIpower, and StadiumDorm "everybody". And what is it with you and Tressel's "error-free" football. If he were really trying to be "error-free", we wouldn't have the 4-WR shotgun formation as our most-used formation all year, now would we, Einstein? By the way, read my above statement to bukIpower, reminding him of the two fumbles (one for a TD) we had against Marshall which really kept them in the game.

 

[martinss01]

Well it seems everybody except Milli thinks the Marshall game isn't Zwick's BEST game in the era of TRESSEL error free football.

depends on how you look at it. as far as zwick showing raw talent and what he is capable of physically? yeah, marshall was his best game. as far as being in control, stepping up as a leader, and playing with heart. that would clearly be the alamo bowl. so it really depends on your measuring stick. in many ways the marshall game is zwicks best performance. very hard to "perform" on one leg don't you think?

p.s. the only guys playing "error free" football are the ones riding the bench...

2 INT's clearly having an effect. NOTICE the score of both games. INTs allow the opponenet back into the game....essentially giving away the game. That to me isn't a stellar performance.

i love how poor decisions are only counted against zwick. the other thing you people seem to leave out when you look at stats are the poor choices that didn't hurt us. how about smith's poor passes that were literally right to db's that only for the grace of god weren't turnovers? oh i guess they don't count cause they aren't on the stat sheet. :rolleyes:

another interesting point ...if simply looking at RAT stat Zwick's perfomance vs. Marshall ...is better than Smith's performance vs. Michigan ....which again proving the point ...those stats don't tell the whole story.

zwick 9/11 Marshall - 170.4
smith 11/20 Michigan - 173.2

where i went to school the bottom number was bigger than the top one... your results may vary..

did you guys ever stop to think that maybe a qb's rating wasn't directly linked to whether or not you post up a "W" and or the margin of victory? guess not *shrug*

 

[jwinslow]

Neither QB was error free, but I don't think you'd find too many supporters that would claim that Zwick and Smith were about equal in the amount of mistakes they made...

Plus even if they were equal the ball velocity of Smith makes it a lot harder to pick off...

Please someone watch that UM game and tell me that Zwick had a game even close to that. I realize its not the whole season, but it was the biggest game he played in. Smith was not only making unbelievable plays with his feet, juking out players and shedding tackles of talented DL-men, but he also was making amazing throws. He threw off his back foot, or while scrambling, or while hopping, or in the pocket. It didn't matter, he had beautiful pass after beautiful pass in that game, so much so that you'd have to combine Zwick's two good games to equal the talent Smith showed.

Not sure why no one has brought this up, but Zwick's best game were against two horrendous defenses (marshall and ok state). And while people like to pick on UM's lack of ability to slow down mobile QBs, their pass D is pretty strong. Their DL got pressure on Smith a lot, and he danced around the pocket and got the ball to his receivers however possible (including a jump throw).

Also, this can be developed, but Zwick did not seem to find Ginn quite as much as Smith (partially cuz Ginn wasn't open early in the season when running bad routes, and also cuz he was the focal point of the D in the AB). Smith seems to have his eyes on Ginn any time a play breaks down, and unlike Zwick, the D has to stay at home somewhat to defend the pass and the run.

 

[Oneshot]

Everyone seems pretty impressed with Zwick's TD#1 pass to Gonzo... But keep in mind with an average receiever, that might have just been an incompletion. It wasn't a well thrown ball, and Gonzo was WIDE open, yet still had to dive for it.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

It's mind-boggling how so many people have their noses up Troy's ass after The Game. Did he have a killer game? Damn right...clearly the best game of the year for either QB, by a big margin. Does that make him the clear-cut starter? No way. You don't base a QB's overall ability on one great game, just as you wouldn't on one bad game.

Now, you all may think that I'm a Zwick man. Not at all. In fact, if I had the choice of which QB, at the top of their game, would be the starter for the Texas game, I'd go with Smith. However, I think Zwick has significantly improved, both in experience and in maturity, and if he's on his game he will be as good an overall QB as Smith. Zwick threw two INTs on consecutive passes against Marshall, and everyone wants to conveniently forget that he threw three TDs of 80, 47, and 20 yards in one half. And Zwick showed huge guts and leadership in the Alamo Bowl.

I think we'll be just fine at the QB spot, whether our main QB is Zwick or Smith...and who knows how Boeckman will turn out.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

However if we run into depth issues at RB, I really think Smith becomes a bigger need. I'm not sold that JZ can run a spread-offense that passes to open up the run. He might have the potential, but he'll have to prove it to me.

Aren't you the one who posted a clip of Zwick running for a big gain against NC State, commenting on how fast he ran? Zwick isn't as fast or as shifty a runner as Smith, but when he's healthy and now that he has more experience, he'll be a more than satisfactory runner when the need arises.

 

[Carmen Ohio]

I'm kind of scratching my head about this Zwick/Smith debate because it didn't seem that quarterback play cost us ANY games last year. The Northwestern and Purdue games were defensive scheme debacles, and the Wisconsin and Iowa games were both defensive scheme and offensive line debacles. Our offensive line was very inexperienced going into last season and had some horrendous performances. Young line plus young quarterbacks equals unpredictable QB performances, hence the peaks and valleys both guys had early-on. Experienced line and battle-tested quarterback equals better, more consistent numbers - hence the great games both guys had at the end of the season. Does anybody really think we would have lost to Michigan had Zwick been quarterback after seeing his performance in the Alamo Bowl? Having said that does anybody really think we would have lost to Oklahoma State even If we had to resort to Ginn at quarterback for the whole game! Our defense was so dominant, the offensive play-calling so brilliant and Ted so electrifying how could we lose?

Unless Zwick gets hurt or does a lot of extremely stupid things he's our starting quarterback. JT has shown us what he's about. He stuck with Krenzel to a fault (how many of us were screaming for McMullen at the end of the 03 Michigan game because Krenzel was obviously hurt) and he did the same with Zwick until he got TOO hurt. What Troy Smith did in the middle of all OSU had to endure with the Clarett allegations leaves him blissfully at second-fiddle with a back-up job in the national spotlight if he can hold off Boeckman... and a college free ride.... if he can beg for, borrow or work for the money he needs to pay restitution for the booster cash he took. You won't be hearing anything from him this season about lack of playing time. I dig both our QB's, but to expect JT to let Smith just waltz in after his suspension is just being stupid. To a lesser extent, it's like FSU's problem a couple of years ago.

With our O-Line maturity and depth it doesn't matter which QB plays this season. Actually, up until Penn State (a liquored-up fan night game that will make or break their season), Zwick may be a little better suited for the job. Lately it seems Texas loses annually to Oklahoma teams with great defenses and quarterbacks so immobile they wouldn't leave the pocket for a winning lottery ticket. Likewise, the defense for Texas and Iowa practice against their wily starting QB's... not those who run when they're not expected to (the key to Krenzel's success).

The bottom line: don't worry boys - it is... or damn near will be... our year for more reasons than Zwick/Smith.

 

[Vikes]

Addressing Milli...point blank.

Please answer the question and stop dodging around.
Do you believe the Marshall game is the best Zwick performance based on Tressel's criterion for grading a QB? YES OR NO

please refer to a link that explain's TRESSEL BALL

http://www.the-ozone.net/football/2004/NCState/noteandquotebook091904.htm






*******HERE"S the opposite EXTREME VIEW about ZWick and it may not be palatable to Zwick supporters. WARNING WARNING *****These are the opinions of Vikes posting on buckeye planet and many other people. It is a response to statement why people KISS TROY's SMITH ass and its not only after 1 game. It may be an extreme point of view but the question will be answered in detail. ***************************
As blunt as a plastic knife from Wendy's.

Tressel built the offense around Zwick. Gave him every opportunity to improve. HE had Hamby, Holmes, and Childress. Ginn also played toward tail end of 3 loss skid, NO slouches. I think the OL and the personelle are getting a bad rap for Zwick. How would it make you feel as an OL or WR or even RB if the QB or the supporters of the QB NEVER EXCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY for his/Zwick's BAD PLAY. Would you even want to play with a guy like that? Some prima dona who keeps blaming the OL, when he holds on the ball too damn much, doesn't know when to throw the ball away, shows no ability to scramble, or the WR who sees the QB continually underthrows the ball, makes poor decisions or use poor mechanics?
He played 6 games and the team looked like it was going into a death spiral. The 3 game skid came toward the end of Zwick's play not in the beggining. Showing no improvement.
The guy caved under the pressure IMHO. Team had no confidence in him or the system after Iowa. One would expect improvement after tough early seasons games ...no the team got worse and worse. I also don't think OSU would have evolved if Zwick continued to play.********** It would have been the same old anemic play.
The medical redshirt excuse to get out of bad situation, that had no hope of getting better.

REASON WHY I KISS SMITH's ASS. Puckering up.

I'll admit it. The guy comes in with confidence. Picks the team up. The team has a swagger. OL wants to play for him. He's not the best dropback QB, but he brings his lunch pail and will do anything to win. He showed improvement after every game. He gives compliments to other players for their play. Keep on saying its because personelle changed. They finally believed in the guy under center.
Even the Purdue game. OSU didn't lay down and play dead like it did against Wisconsin and Iowa. The team fought their asses off. People want to remember 3 INT of Troy Smith, which in Tressel ball terms isn't good. He blamed himself for that game. However he showed more grit and determination than anything I saw from Zwick.

After Michigan it was Troy's team, IMHO. I was on the Troy Smith band wagon. Presently I want to move to front.

(Remind me of the suspension. Like it can change anything that I said or my opinion on the matter. )

Zwick was probably about to transfer. If it weren't for suspension, we wouldn't even be discussing Zwick. He borrowed the keys of another Qb's team and he's keeping the seat warm. He looked good driving it but not spetacular.

I hope Zwick does well for the team in the Miami game, however I honestly do not want him there permanently. It just doesn't seem right to me. Like somebody selling me a lemon and then after I invested alot into it and made it a headturner ......he wants to steal it back. Just doesn't seem right.


******************End of Warning to Zwick supporters***************************************

Go bucks!!!! (i bet I'll get flack for this post....but wouldn't you want somebody to be real instead of fake?)

--Props to BuckinFl.....he stated in previous posts. He doesn't even consider TS because he's not a dropback QB and to him mobile QB can't win championships. At least he will tell you the reason for his bias. KNOW I TOLD YOU MINE.

 

[jwinslow]

Mili, you called me out on my post. Zwick indeed has enough mobility when healthy to be a krenzel esque runner (maybe not quite as agile but as fast). I guess I more meant the defense has to watch out for more things, as Smith can be golden passing on the run (whereas JZ does not look as strong doing that).

The posts from people suggesting Tressel will stick with Zwick like last year are slightly off base, UNLESS they are including the suspension in that analysis. For that reason, I think JZ will get a lot of slack again this year.

 

[KretchBuck]

However, I think Zwick has significantly improved, both in experience and in maturity, and if he's on his game he will be as good an overall QB as Smith.

What are you basing this on? One game? Come Mili, I have been reading your posts for a long time, (since sucknuts) but I have never seen you so wrong. Anyone, and I mean anyone who thinks Zwick is better than Smith in any facet of the game was not watching Buckeye football last year.

I will ask all of you Zwick apologists out there one question. If Zwick was not as highly touted coming out of high school would anyone really still be talking about him? To me Zwick is on the same level as Bellasorry and that is saying a lot. Some good games but most of the time he was ineffective and threw a lot of INT's.

I still can not believe after all of this time and all of these threads about Smith and Zwick there are still folks holding out hope that Justin will somehow regain his form, if he ever had it, and become the savior.

Justin will start the Texas game but will be pulled early and Troy will never give up his starting spot again during his career at tOSU.

 

[tsteele316]

MSU, NW, OSU, UT

what do these 4 teams have in common? all 4 had mobile qb's and all 4 had success against michigan's D.

Smith played a great game against TTUN, but he was one in a trend.

lets look at his 4 starts:

indiana: anyone of us could have qb'd and won that game. the auto pick 6 that ended up a ginn TD saved him from looking bad.

psu: he threw 8 passes, not much to judge

msu: ginn won that game for osu period.

purdue: he made some very foolish redzone errors that did cost the game, but were one of several factors.

the bottom line is that if troy smith would have had a good alamo bowl, this would be moot, but he screwed himself.

is he ultimately the best option at qb, maybe.
can zwick play the position well enough to get osu where they want to go, probably.

kissing the a$$ of one or the other is foolish.

 

[AJHawkfan]

Justin will start the Texas game...

I doubt it. Reference the following bolded portion - from today's DDN...


Smith will sit out opener
NCAA makes suspension official; Zwick likely to start at quarterback against RedHawks

By Doug Harris

Dayton Daily News

COLUMBUS | Ohio State will begin spring practice for the second straight year with uncertainty at quarterback after starter Troy Smith was suspended by the NCAA for the 2005 opener.

The Buckeyes, who begin drills Thursday, will be grooming junior Justin Zwick for a Sept. 3 game with Miami University. Smith, who admitted accepting cash from a booster, will be eligible for a nationally televised night game with Texas if he makes restitution.

OSU coach Jim Tressel informed Smith about the ruling Tuesday morning and said it didn't catch the junior by surprise.

"I think everyone had been talking about it, (saying) 'Hey, that's going to happen. You'd better be ready for it. (The NCAA) isn't going to treat you any worse than other people, and they're not going to treat you any better,' " Tressel said. "I think he was expecting it."

Tressel indicated he wouldn't hesitate to start Smith against Rose Bowl champion Texas on Sept. 10 if he responds with a strong showing this spring and fall.

"Let's pretend (star linebacker) Bobby Carpenter sprained an ankle and missed the first game," Tressel said. "Would you put him in the second game if he was ready? I think you do."

Smith took over for an ineffective Zwick at midseason and led the Buckeyes to four wins in their last five regular-season games in 2004, including a euphoric upset of Michigan.

But he was banned by OSU for the Alamo Bowl after the school learned about an under-the-table payment from Springfielder Robert Q. Baker. Zwick had his most productive outing of the season in Smith's absence, leading the Buckeyes to a 33-7 win over Oklahoma State.

Zwick and Smith were off-limits to the media Tuesday. But senior center Nick Mangold said the muddled quarterback picture won't derail the Buckeyes.

"It's great that both of them have experience," he said. "I don't know if you'd call it a controversy or a competition — I don't know the term for it — but I know it's nice having both of them back there."

The NCAA has been investigating additional allegations concerning the OSU football program, and Tressel doesn't believe the probe has ended.

"Are they still asking questions? I would assume (they are) — just like we're still asking questions," he said.

"We've spent a lot of time ... trying to figure out how we can do a better job handling the reality of negative outside influences."

Contact Doug Harris at 225-2125.

 

[jwinslow]

I'll reiterate my point again, since many of you seem to be missing it, Troy Smith did not just Vince Young his way to a victory against Michigan.

He made tons of great throws on the run, in the pocket, scrambling and then finding someone open...

So to bring up Michigan's D against a mobile QB isn't fair. He passed the ball all day long too, way better than Zwick has ever passed it (for an entire game).

 

[KretchBuck]

Hawkfan:


From my experience in interpreting Tress speak he is probably saying this to get the most out of Justin and Troy. Also if he does mean what he says, Troy is further ahead of Justin than most of us think.

 

[tsteele316]

I'll reiterate my point again, since many of you seem to be missing it, Troy Smith did not just Vince Young his way to a victory against Michigan.

He made tons of great throws on the run, in the pocket, scrambling and then finding someone open...

So to bring up Michigan's D against a mobile QB isn't fair. He passed the ball all day long too, way better than Zwick has ever passed it (for an entire game).

MSU, 368 rushing, 170 throwing on 18-26, nearly 540 total.
NW, 190 rushing, 215 passing on 24-44, 405 total
OSU, 205 rushing, 241 throwing on 13-23, 446 total
UT, 264 rushing, 180 throwing on 16-28, 444 total.

seems like a pretty even trend to me. NW was the only team with a lower completion %, by 1.5%.

so, 4 mobile qb's, 4 very similar results.