Zwick vs. Smith (official thread)

[craigw99]

Parts of this thread boggle my mind.



First, I dont understand how ANYONE can be defending TS's performance Saturday, especially when alot of those are people who were Zwick bashers after the Texas game.

But lets be honest, We all knew coming into the season that our biggest strength on offense would be our recievers, and Troy Smith is not getting the ball to them. He has proven to be inaccurate and nothing more than a small option and running threat.

JZ is not mobile, and makes mistakes, but overall, he sees the field better, and throws better, more accurate balls. To me, in order to get the full potential out of our recievers, we need a QB like Zwick.

For those of you who are scared of ridicule for jumping off the Troy Smith bandwagon, dont be scared, every single one of us is about winning, I know I wont give you any flack.

 

[LRABuck]

I agree with the rest of your post, but wanted to ask a question about this specific statement. How could Zwick or Boeckman not done better than TS against Penn State? With little exception TS had more than enough time to make his way through his progressions....twice. With that much time, there is no excuse for not even finding a dump off receiver to go to.

What I thought I said was that I DON'T KNOW if either of them would have done any better. Zwick has his own set of problems and Boeckman hasn't seen enough in-game action for us to tell. I personally don't know. It's like saying that had it been Smith who had taken the snap in the Texas game where Zwick fumbled away the drive, that Smith would not have dropped it and everything would have been different. I still think that the SAME THING could have just as easily happened to Smith. But we don't know. We can't know. I don't know. If someone else does know, I'd like to learn, though. :)

 

[AirForceBuck]

All I am going to ask is when are we gonna allow ourselves to have one starting QB, and two back ups? Im a HUGE Smith supporter, but Im an even bigger Buckeye supporter spreading love to all our QB's.

Seriously, its comming to about mid-season and we are still debating who should start and then if that guy doesnt pan out, who should come in?! Seriously, we lost due to poor execution on BOTH sides of the ball, playcalling, and lack of ref's. Right about now, we have a line that is looking for the leadership to possibly cap the year off at a plausable 10-2 under a BCS win. This is not able to happen if we continue to juggle through "leaders". We have seen 3 different QB's this year that have all contributed to TD's and help in wins. 2 QB's took an L to Texas and Smith is going to take the blame publicly for the PSU loss. Our line and recieving corps all say they perfer Smith over Zwick as a leader in the game, but support both. Right now we have to do the same, and stick with him. We lost, but we cant continue to juggle through our lineup to find a QB that will complete 100% of his passes, take no sacks, no INT's, 4 passing TD's and 4 rush TD's - it aint gonna be found. The closest we have came to great numbers are Zwick with Miami, Troy with Iowa. Both played great ballgames, but its time to settle on one. Live by him, die by him (unless we get another loss or two).
I didnt see too many people wanting to replace Krenzel with McMullen after his first loss in 2003, but now we are. We are the most seperated bunch of all fans right about now. Tenn. even had a QB controversey, yet weathered the storm with Clausen who took an L this week. So the bottom line is that we find one starting QB, and 2 backups, and untill we do our offense and team for that matter isnt going to accurately produce the way we all would like.

This is a team sport and we should be a team fanbase!

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

my hope for this weekend -- at least one of them -- is to see smith pass out of the pocket. zwick is a pocket passer; smith is not. i'm sure that is too simplistic, but i think that smith would do better just reacting and not necessarily trying to "read." it was last year that i thought the same thing about zwick: he "thought" too much.

i'd like to see some pass plays designed to get ginn the ball while he is on the run across the middle or toward the middle. i cannot recall the last time that smith connected on a post pattern. his downfield accuracy beyond 25 yards is poor. you'd think that with ginn, holmes, and gonzalez, deep threats would be common and lucrative. obviously, it has not been the case.

i'd like to see smith be more pocket-aware this weekend. the last sack/fumble should not have happened. he had plenty of time in the pocket. what's worse is that he was tackled (read: leveled) by a defender from the right side. if he is going to see a defender barreling toward him, it would be a defender from the right side. if he cannot see a defender to the right while is body is naturally opened to that direction, smith's periphery is limited directly around him as well as downfield.

 

[jwinslow]

Pride I agree with your post about sticking with someone, but not the poor execution on all sides. You don't hold that dangerous of an offense to 10 points by having poor execution (that was basically a guaranteed TD starting on the 1). One bad drive doesn't equate to a bad day for the defense. They yielded way more points and yardage against UM last year, and everyone says they played incredible.

 

[Onebuckfan]

I would love the O to have a meeting and decide that starting this week at every practice and when were doing drills and plays we are going to concentrate and execute everyone just like its the NC game. We are going to play together as a team, if we are going to get beat its because the other team is better. The line has to be in the correct protection every play and not let someone run free at the QB, a physical miss like Hamby Sat. night can happen but no mental mistakes. The receivers need to be in the game every play run your route and then be ready to help your QB if the play breaks down..not running down the field waving your hand making your QB look bad. The Qb needs to execute his throws put the ball where the reciever can do something with it and also trust our big play guys to make plays wing it out there. Make yoUr decisions quicker run if you must,but protect the ball.The running back needs to run hard and protect the ball also helpyour line out when pass blocking get that first free man. This all will give Coach the confidence in you so he can call some of the plays like in the NC season. Right now youhave not shown the Coach you can execute the offense as needed.He is calling plays to limit your mistakes. Show HIM youcan do what it takes to WIN a game. If this happens then this team will fulfill the expectations. I don't know if this O has it in them to do it! PROVE ME A liar!

 

[martinss01]

Seriously, its comming to about mid-season and we are still debating who should start and then if that guy doesnt pan out, who should come in?!

i don't think anyone "wants" to have this conversation. the problem is, the conversation is warranted at this point. smith was horrid against texas, just as bad against sdsu, good against iowa, and really rough against psu. i don't really hold texas and sdsu against him because he really was rusty, and expectedly so. but with that said, zwick was dead on in his first game and showed little to no rust. iowa, id grade him a winning performance on that game, though not by much. way to eager to pull it down and run and he missed a ton of open receivers. the fact that we lost the psu game should be immaterial. oh how it drives me completely insane that people feel otherwise... but moving right along! the problem i had with ts in the psu game is he continued to put the ball on the ground and in general showed no progression what-so-ever from the iowa game. he had two weeks to study film and correct the mistakes he made against iowa. now, while some of that can be attributed to a great psu defense. the majority of it still falls on smith and the coaching staff.

conversely, zwick showed against both okie st and miami (oh) that he has grown significantly. to further complicate the matter, the offenses personality changes radically based upon who the qb is. when smith is in we are a qb option team that just happens to line up in a spread most of the time but more often than not, is going to run. passing, expecially short passes, isn't really much of a threat with smith at qb. when zwick is on the field, we're actually a spread team. while we're more likely to take a sack and you won't need a spy on the qb, we're also much more likely to put the ball in the hands of those who scare defenses the most. it was true last year, its still true today. anytime our qb, regardless of which one it is, goes beyond the line of scrimmage with the ball in his hands it is without question a win for the defense.

Seriously, we lost due to poor execution on BOTH sides of the ball, playcalling, and lack of ref's.

no, we lost because we have an offense that is incapable of shouldering its portion of the load. apparently when the defense doesn't force 3 turnovers inside the opposing teams 20 in addition to scoring on a pick six you deserve to loose. i realize many think that this required in order to win a game. but 116 other teams manage to get by without doing so...

We lost, but we cant continue to juggle through our lineup to find a QB that will complete 100% of his passes, take no sacks, no INT's, 4 passing TD's and 4 rush TD's - it aint gonna be found.

we don't need world beater stats. neither guy is the end all be all at the position. both guys have a long way to go before they can even be considered "the guy". the ONLY thing i want to see from whoever the starting qb is, is that he is progressing and getting better with each game. im flat out not seeing that with smith. he's had 4 games to show us something. other than iowa, in which he was good not great, he's really been subpar. zwick on the other hand showed that he has taken great strides since he was benched midway through last season.

The closest we have came to great numbers are Zwick with Miami, Troy with Iowa. Both played great ballgames, but its time to settle on one. Live by him, die by him (unless we get another loss or two).

and if we loose another game? then a switch is warranted? *ponders*

the worst part of this entire debate is it is nearly irrelivant. the toughest part of our schedule is gone. whoever plays the rest of the season, be it smith or zwick, will be dubbed "gods gift to all things buckeye" just like last year. people will once again get all stary-eyed as they look at the W/L category and will completley overlook the performances, or lack-there-of, that secured that letter. i really feel bad for both qb's. one of them is in the process of getting screwed royally.

 

[jwinslow]

iowa, id grade him a winning performance on that game, though not by much. way to eager to pull it down and run and he missed a ton of open receivers.

you sure about that? Tirico and the announcers kept going on and on about how well he did waiting in the pocket, almost to a fault a few times. His 100+ yds on the ground seemed to work out nicely when he did scramble. I think Smith threw one or two bad passes all game that day. And while their DL might be a little weak, that back seven is pretty strong, and he picked it apart.

the ONLY thing i want to see from whoever the starting qb is, is that he is progressing and getting better with each game. im flat out not seeing that with smith. he's had 4 games to show us something. other than iowa, in which he was good not great, he's really been subpar. zwick on the other hand showed that he has taken great strides since he was benched midway through last season.

that's not entirely fair. 1) Zwick's great strides against OkState were matched by great strides by Lydell Ross. That should tell you a lot. Zwick has improved, but he was not much better or worse than Smith vs. Texas, which has been his only test since returning.

Smith came in rusty against Texas but had a few good plays, then got a little better (but turned the ball over) against SDSU, and then looked great against Iowa (other than the fumbles, and that type of thing can be addressed, hopefullY). Then we took a huge step back against PSU.

I agree he needs to show a lot more progression and never play at the level of SDSU or PSU. But I think you're giving Zwick a lot of slack for throwing extremely short passes against poor D's. I don't think there has been enough evidence defensively to judge either way for Zwick.

 

[robbothehut]

Ok so basically Smith can't throw and Swick isn't a "leader."

I know Smith threw well against Iowa but they weren't very many down field tosses and he overthrows every long pass. Teaching him to throw now is a waste of time. So I only see two alternatives.

1) JT can kick everyone in the ass and tell them to play for Swick or they're benched; or 2) play Boeckman, who in what little we have seen of him this year appears to look down the field for his receivers rather than just within 10 yards of the LOS.

It seems necessary to me for several reasons to stretch the field vertically. First It will help the running game, which is currently a disgrace. PSU crowded the LOS all night and why not. Second, it will help open up receivers underneath. Third, we have best receivers in the country and if we want anymore that are that good, we better quit wasting them. Its like the best set of golf clubs in the world being owned by a guy with no arms.

If we aren't going to do something to make our offense more imaginative and less predictable, then put a fullback in and another tight end and start grinding meat.....

 

[jwinslow]

we threw the ball deep 2-3 times last night, and holmes was definitely gimpy all game. On one of those, I think he usually comes close to making that catch if he is 100%. btw, Zwick isn't anymore accurate throwing deep balls than Smith. Yes he had the ones in marshall, but then he turned around and threw awful INTs deep in that game. He also missed two deep WRs in his vaunted OkState performance.

Something else that hasn't really been discussed is that we don't have RBs. We have 1, named Pittman, who has gotten banged up. Therefore, it's possible that Smith is in there as our other RB, to help Pittman last all game. Schnittker is definitely not a very good choice, and Wells is too new to shoulder the load it seems.

 

[RMosack]

He also missed two deep WRs in his vaunted OkState performance.

I hope that you are aware that he played almost that entire game on a pulled hamstring. It's amazing that he did as well as he did and the Buckeyes blew out their bowl opponent.

 

[jwinslow]

Zwick had a great performance in the AB, no doubt. But the one type of pass Smith has thrown better than Zwick has been the deep ball. He has thrown a great fade to Holmes vs. UM (vs. Jackson down the UM sideline), to Holmes vs. Purdue (bobble catch), and to Holmes vs. Texas (TD). As I stated before, a healthy Holmes catches one of those deep balls (I can't recall which one it was). That doesn't rule out that Smith didn't stink up the place saturday, it just is evidence that Smith does throw a good deep ball.

 

[UGABuck]

If that's how you want to look at it. I guess a player is never to blame for anything.

If a kid does not "get it" for a few games then the kid might be a slow learner...not the coaches fault. Sometime it takes a full season to see progress from a kid....again not a coaching issue. But when you look at the offense during JT's tenure I see a pattern and the only constant I can find is coaching.

 

[Sdgobucks]

Troy Smith-
Troy Smith has not proved himself at quarterback in the starts that he has had this season. It is easy to tell if he is going to run the ball as soon as it is snapped, he holds it higher than if he is going to pass the ball. He also doesn't seem to have the arm strength to throw the ball far enough down field to open up the running game and get some of the defenders out of the box. With the amount of speed that the bucks have at receiver they should be able to open up the field with a few down field passes. As for switching Smith to RB he has better size than Pittman and all he does well is run the ball. So we may as well play to his strengths. The only reason I would even suggest WR is if he isn't durable enough to handle running the ball.

Zwick is a thrower who can get the ball to the receivers down field. I think the offensive line will offer better protection if they only have one offense to learn instead of two and they know where the quarterback is and that he is going to be throwing the ball instead of running it constantly.

Running Back-
Pittman has shown some abilities to run the ball but I would like to see him bulk up a little more. He is listed at 195lbs which is a little light for a running back. I believe in the school of power running backs and he just isn't big enough to pound the ball. Smith is listed at 215lbs which gives him a little more momentum when going up against line backers. The only thing I am not sure he has is the strenth to hold onto the ball consistantly, or to run over defensive backs. If he has an off-season to work on strenth for running the ball instead of throwing the ball he could turn into a good running back.

Game Plan-
The Bucks need to establish either the pass or the run instead of doing both without doing either well. I would like to see the I formation a little more early in the game to wear the defense down before they open the offense up into the three or four wide receiver sets. The defensive lines are too fresh late in the game allowing them to get a good pass rush on the QB.
:osu:

Where to start ....
1. If you don't think TS should be at QB, that is a reasonable argument. Wrong IMO, but reasonable. However saying we should play him at RB borders on retarded. TS runs well at QB, because he is running at QB. He has good speed, and can see open holes, but when he is running the ball it is either an unexpected play, the RB is blocking for, or its the option. When the RB blocks for him it gives us 1 extra blocker that you usually don't have when the RB gets the ball, normally the QB gives to the RB and just stands there. When the QB runs in the option, he has the option to pitch the ball to the RB. The defense has to have a man to cover that pitch, so again you have one less defender to worry about. If you line TS up in the I, and have JZ give him the ball he wont do anything but fumble, and get tackled behind the line.

2. You say: "Zwick is a thrower who can get the ball to the receivers down field. I think the offensive line will offer better protection if they only have one offense to learn instead of two and they know where the quarterback is and that he is going to be throwing the ball instead of running it constantly."
I don't know that I have seen Zwick complete any passes down the field, he certainly didn't against Texas. I'm not sure where you are getting that, maybe the grass is just greener on the other side. Zwick has done better with the short to medium routes from what I have seen. What you say about the offensive line I believe is completely opposite from what most people think. When you have a stationary QB the D-line knows just where he will be, and they come after him hard and fast. When you have a mobile QB, the D-line has to try to contain him first, and then sack him. You might get more holding calls with the mobile QB, but I don't see it hurting the O-line.

3. What you say about Pittman is probably true, I too think he could use some more weight.

4. You say: "The Bucks need to establish either the pass or the run instead of doing both without doing either well. I would like to see the I formation a little more early in the game to wear the defense down before they open the offense up into the three or four wide receiver sets. The defensive lines are too fresh late in the game allowing them to get a good pass rush on the QB."

Again, the opposite from what I know of football. You want to be able to have a good balance of running and passing both. You should try to keep the defense off balance, keep them guessing. As for the "I formation" earlier in the game, I would like to see it too, but our O-line is not playing well enough (at least against good teams) to run the "I formation" much at all.

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

unfortunately for zwick and perhaps (just perhaps) for the rest of the buckeye nation -- team included, of course --, zwick's fumble toward the end of the game against texas sealed his fate. after the game, tressel said that he would stick with smith as THE quarterback, and i don't expect any retraction. i bet that tressel is rather staunch with his keeping smith at quarterback. smith's performance, while ineffectual, was not so horrible that he is beyond repair. i know, i know, i know... smith was the main reason for the loss, and his limbs and head should be placed on spires around 270. again, i just hope that his learning curve is sharp, and the coaches learn to bend an offense around him and not the other way around. i do not know enough about offensive sets, but there must be simpler reads for him. smith has game; the coaches and he just haven't found it yet.

at least that's the story i'm going with.