Zwick vs. Smith (official thread)

[Bucklion]

Haven't read the whole thread, but I don't think the QB matters as much as some think, in terms of who is in there. Zwick didn't exactly light it up against Texas, and I don't know if he would have made a significant difference Saturday, either. The teams we play from here on out have much, much weaker defenses than those two teams, and either QB can be successful in that situation (Smith vs. Iowa, for example). For this reason, I believe we can win out with either guy, so making the switch, in my mind, isn't necessary.

 

[SWOhioBuckeye]

What the hell does that mean?
If you have an opinion, state it. If it is well reasoned you may be pleasantly surprised at the reception it will be accorded.

I have been a JZ supporter, but like many jumped on the Smith bandwagon after the Michigan game. I lost a ton of respect for him after the booster fiasco and after watching Zwick in a gutsy performance against Okie State and then with the improvement he has shown this year I think he was very unfairly yanked as the starter. Zwick has represented the university well and has performed consistently on the field this year. Smith has done neither.

Zwick is much better at making reads and hitting his checkdown recievers. He's not as mobile, but isn't immobile and has shown a much better ability to throw the touch pass. With our D what we need is consistency and as talented as Smith is I don't think he can deliver.

 

[TheStoicPaisano]

What the heck is the point of making great reads when you end up dumping the ball off for 5 yards? Sure, Zwick has a great completion percentage, but that's like judging a baseball player on his batting average. I just don't see the ability in him to put the team in the end zone, as evidenced by his TD:TO ratio of only one. With Smith, you obviously have the chance to hit the homerun every time he's up, but he also has the propensity to strikeout, and also has had trouble holding onto the football. I think Smith's running ability makes up for the small YPA gap (depsite a high completion percentage for Zwick). And the argument that Smith's running takes away yards from Pittman is a fallacy, as Tony had his best game against Iowa, when Smith kept the ball alot.

 

[sandgk]

See - that is a response I can understand. I may disagree that Smith has not represented the University well this year - frankly I believe he has taken his punishment for last year's errors well. His on field performance looked till the Penn State game to be improving.

Nonetheless, at least you state a clear and internally consistent position. Smith and his consistency are what seem to be the biggest concerns you and other wanting a change share.

Thing is though, I cannot get out of my mind the schizoid performances Zwick can put up. He'll go 8 for 8 on a drive and then fall right back into the habit of throwing of his back foot for a pick on the next. Plus, I cannot dismiss from the equation the issue of team chemistry. In general that factor weighs fairly heavily in Troy Smith's favor.

As someone elsewhere put it an ideal QB for this offense is someone with Troy's arm strength and legs, Zwick's generally better pocket presence and Smith's leadership skills. Which I strongly hope correctly describes Boeckman - though I'm not likely to see that put to the test anytime soon.

Till then, based on his adaptability, team leadership and arm strength I would still choose to go with Troy as the signal caller.

Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[bigBUXfan]

What the heck is the point of making great reads when you end up dumping the ball off for 5 yards? Sure, Zwick has a great completion percentage, but that's like judging a baseball player on his batting average. I just don't see the ability in him to put the team in the end zone, as evidenced by his TD:TO ratio of only one. With Smith, you obviously have the chance to hit the homerun every time he's up, but he also has the propensity to strikeout, and also has had trouble holding onto the football. I think Smith's running ability makes up for the small YPA gap (depsite a high completion percentage for Zwick). And the argument that Smith's running takes away yards from Pittman is a fallacy, as Tony had his best game against Iowa, when Smith kept the ball alot.

He has hit one homerun, against texas. Stuck out a lot more.

 

[jwinslow]

I should preface my disagreement by saying I greatly agree with most of your assessment. The homerun thing is why Smith is in the game, IMO. And bux fan, sorry you missed the Iowa game. He hit some big plays in the SDSU game too (tho he also struck out some).

And the argument that Smith's running takes away yards from Pittman is a fallacy, as Tony had his best game against Iowa, when Smith kept the ball alot.

Iowa's DL was a joke, hence the 100 yds for both pittman and smith. Against Texas, Smith's scrambling cost us bigger runs that could have gone to Pittman. I don't mind Smith's scrambling. I wish they'd let him play like he used to, where he would make things happen. He is in such a bottle now that he isn't allowed to scramble, and he isn't good at picking apart a defense. If we can get him to scramble and occasionally stop and throw (which is what makes him so dangerous, see Michigan game, all those scramble passes to teddy on 3rd down), we will see the real TS again.

I think VY is far better, but keep in mind how often our Texas friends told us the horror stories of when their OC and HC tried to change VY. When they let him be himself, the difference was night and day. I don't think Smith will become Michael Vick, but I think he'll be a lot better if he is encouraged to run, but moreso scramble and then pass.

 

[IronBuckI]

I don't know that Zwick or even Boeckman could have done better against Penn State.

I agree with the rest of your post, but wanted to ask a question about this specific statement. How could Zwick or Boeckman not done better than TS against Penn State? With little exception TS had more than enough time to make his way through his progressions....twice. With that much time, there is no excuse for not even finding a dump off receiver to go to.

I loved Troy's performance against Michigan, but other than that game, I am underwhelmed with his ability to get the other play-makers involved. I have not been overly impressed with Zwick either, but he has not had the opportunity to be THE guy in this type of spread offense, while healthy, except for the Miami game. You know, the one he did very well in. I like the idea of getting Zwick back in the line-up. Personally I don't care how Troy carries himself, or how bossy he is to his receivers, if he can't find them when they're open.

 

[wells]

Zwick is much better at making reads and hitting his checkdown recievers. He's not as mobile, but isn't immobile and has shown a much better ability to throw the touch pass. With our D what we need is consistency and as talented as Smith is I don't think he can deliver.

Zwicks inconsistency shows when he's constantly pressured. Granted he's a good qb and i can agree with the fact that he makes a better read, but once his protection he makes alot of same mistakes smith was making against PSU. Forced throws, bad reads, and locking on one receiver seems to be a common denominator with both QB's when facing tough D's.

<O:p</O:pThe only potential way i see to alleviate these QB shortcomings is either...<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

A) Having drills tailored to making them make quick decisions and being under constant pressure. Granted i cant make much basis on this as i have no idea of the nature of any drills that occur during a practice, but this would seem to be a logical choice.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

B) Stick with one starter, let him gain more experience and fully develop.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Smith himself said the game was starting to slow down for him post <ST1:place w:st="on"><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on">Iowa</st1:State></ST1:place>, but given his performance against PSU that’s a rather misleading statement. Smith needs more experience against defenses such as PSU and <st1:State w:st="on"><ST1:place w:st="on">Texas</ST1:place></st1:State> and that'll make his reads that much easier. If we try to keep juggling qb's all year it'll prevent either qb from fully developing. So hypothetically if there was a switch to Zwick it damn well better be the last.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Given our offense now, as i see it, Troy Smith is the better fit. If we want to spread the ball out and move things around he is the better qb. In naming him a starter a few weeks back Tressel can be quoted as saying Smith was the better fit. However, given the talent that we have at RB both currently and to be expected (Chris Wells), i think Zwick would be a better fit for more of a pro style offense that would benefit our RB's and rely on precision passing.<O:p</O:p



....if this post seems rushed, i apologize, im already late to my next class.

 

[SWOhioBuckeye]

See - that is a response I can understand. I may disagree that Smith has not represented the University well this year - frankly I believe he has taken his punishment for last year's errors well. His on field performance looked till the Penn State game to be improving.

Nonetheless, at least you state a clear and internally consistent position. Smith and his consistency are what seem to be the biggest concerns you and other wanting a change share.

Thing is though, I cannot get out of my mind the schizoid performances Zwick can put up. He'll go 8 for 8 on a drive and then fall right back into the habit of throwing of his back foot for a pick on the next. Plus, I cannot dismiss from the equation the issue of team chemistry. In general that factor weighs fairly heavily in Troy Smith's favor.

As someone elsewhere put it an ideal QB for this offense is someone with Troy's arm strength and legs, Zwick's generally better pocket presence and Smith's leadership skills. Which I strongly hope correctly describes Boeckman - though I'm not likely to see that put to the test anytime soon.

Till then, based on his adaptability, team leadership and arm strength I would still choose to go with Troy as the signal caller.

Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I agree that Smith hasn't done anything this year off the field, my point was more in regards to Zwick earning the right to hold onto the starting job.

I think the problem with the perception of Zwick is that people still look at last year. I see a much improved QB this year in Zwick and that tells me he worked hard in the offseason and took his job seriously.

I also agree with you that team chemistry is important, but even if Smith has the ability to generate that chemistry it hasn't meant much on the field this year. I think that if the personality of the QB is more important than his ability our coaching staff isn't doing their job.

 

[exhawg]

I agree that Smith hasn't done anything this year off the field, my point was more in regards to Zwick earning the right to hold onto the starting job.

I think the problem with the perception of Zwick is that people still look at last year. I see a much improved QB this year in Zwick and that tells me he worked hard in the offseason and took his job seriously.

I also agree with you that team chemistry is important, but even if Smith has the ability to generate that chemistry it hasn't meant much on the field this year. I think that if the personality of the QB is more important than his ability our coaching staff isn't doing their job.

Starting next week Smith is going to know what it felt like to be Zwick last year if he makes a mistake. The idiot boobirds will be out if we go 3 and out the first series.

 

[SWOhioBuckeye]

Starting next week Smith is going to know what it felt like to be Zwick last year if he makes a mistake. The idiot boobirds will be out if we go 3 and out the first series.

Unfortunately you are absolutely right. I don't care what their reason booing any OSU player if you support OSU is uncalled for. I may express my issues with their performance here, but I would never boo them.

 

[buckeyefool]

recruiting ratings are overrated, Mangold is a 4 year starter at C and wasn't even ranked, Holmes/Hawk/etc were 3 stars. Just b/c a player is highly rated doesn't mean he will live up to his hype. Zwick certainly hasn't. Ron Powlus didn't. the list goes on.

recruiting rating are very overrated. You never know when a kid might step up and become a stud player that was marginal in hs. Or someone who was a stud in hs can become a joke in college. Just like the jump from college to the pro's some people just can never adjust to the new surroundings

 

[TheStoicPaisano]

Iowa's DL was a joke, hence the 100 yds for both pittman and smith. Against Texas, Smith's scrambling cost us bigger runs that could have gone to Pittman. I don't mind Smith's scrambling. I wish they'd let him play like he used to, where he would make things happen. He is in such a bottle now that he isn't allowed to scramble, and he isn't good at picking apart a defense. If we can get him to scramble and occasionally stop and throw (which is what makes him so dangerous, see Michigan game, all those scramble passes to teddy on 3rd down), we will see the real TS again.

I don't know if Iowa and SDSU are jokes, or if Texas and Penn State are that good. There's probably 4 all-conference picks on those two lines. Penn State and Texas are ranked 5th and 16th in total defense, respectively.

Michigan State is 82nd, Indiana 54th, Minnesota 64th, Northwestern 116th, Illinois 109th, Michigan 31st in total defense. Miami was 99th, Iowa 59th, and SDSU 37th. Our QBs had positive TD:TO ratios in those three games, and we won each by 20+ points. At least until Ann Arbor, we'll be seeing the worst defenses of the year. Whatever adjective you choose to apply to SDSU/Iowa defenses, they are certainly more fitting to our upcoming opponents than any words you would use to describe Texas/PSU defenses.

I too hope that the coaching staff gives Troy (or whoever is in at the time) plays that will take advantage of his skills. I know people get bored up with designed running plays, but that's where Smith shines. He (and any QB) will struggle when the OL is playing down a man and he's forced to go through his reads without being encouraged to use his legs.

 

[DDOTT]

Alex Stepanovich and Shane Olivea are both starting... and for the life of me, i can't rememeber his name, but our '01 center starts as well...
Jonathan Wells gets his share of carries, and you can hardly blame a serious knee injury on Drew Carter-- the Panthers expected him to play... did i mention Ben Hartsock? he's not a star, but he plays a lot for the Colts as the blocking TE.

Lecharles Bentley- New Orleans Saints

 

[jwinslow]

Stoic, I would call Iowa's DL a joke. That was our problem last year, and our back seven were rendered useless as a result. Also, Iowa's stats are skewed heavily by playing nobodies early on. Still, they are better on D overall than anyone we'll see from here on out.