Yahoo, Tattoos, and tOSU (1-year bowl ban, 82 scholly limit for 3 years)

[MaxBuck]

This isn't a comment on OSU, but on top tier sports schools in general. The numbers vary from program to program, but football and basketball tend to have a fair number of mercenaries. The other sports tend to have mostly student athletes. I believe the main reason for this is the revenue potential of football and basketball. Schools like Oberlin, Harvard and Williams are not competitive in either football or basketball and probably never will be.

And my point is that the excellence of the Ohio State football program is the reason we can fund the non-revenue sports that provide the superb holistic education experience to other student-athletes. Without pulling general-revenue dollars from the university to do so, I might add, which Williams and Oberlin cannot do.

By the way, regarding "competitiveness," there are highly competitive programs at schools you wouldn't necessarily expect to field them. Baseball at Bethune-Cookman, golf at Augusta State, hockey at Cornell and Colgate, track and field at Edinboro are all highly competitive programs in their sports.

 

[zincfinger]

And my point is that the excellence of the Ohio State football program is the reason we can fund the non-revenue sports that provide the superb holistic education experience to other student-athletes. Without pulling general-revenue dollars from the university to do so, I might add, which Williams and Oberlin cannot do.

I understand your point, but I think it raises at least one objective, and one subjective question. Objective: Do the non-revenue sports really rely on the revenue sports for their existence (at least in the form they're currently in)? And subjective: assuming the answer above is "yes", does that mean that everything possible should be done to make the revenue generating sports as revenue generating as possible?

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I've read your arguments over the last few months and I've let many things slide. However, this little clip of tunnel vision is just too much for me.

You really have ZERO clue about player-coach relationships if you honestly believe that statement. ZERO. I am not going to get up on a soapbox here nor am I going to spill dozens of personal "feel good" stories. However, I will tell you that little snippet of yours is a broadstroked swipe that reeks of frustration and overwhelmed with ignorance.

I'll grant you frustration. I'm more than frustrated with what's been going on at Ohio State. Ignorance? For someone who did everything but get on a soapbox and scream "he's gone" prior to Memorial Day, I'm hardly ignorant about what's been happening behind the scenes.

 

[osugrad21]

Ignorance? For someone who did everything but get on a soapbox and scream "he's gone" prior to Memorial Day, I'm hardly ignorant about what's been happening behind the scenes.

HE is again a singular entity. That ignores the rest of my point.

If you are looking for me to defend TP, it won't happen and has not happened in a long time.

However, if you think I will sit idly while you broadstroke every player/coach relationship in that light, then yessir, you are ignorant to the situation.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Cinci and ORD can ride those tall ponies if they'd like, but pragmatism suggests that Jim Tressel was a superb steward of our football program. His success allowed many student-athletes to secure a college education that they could not have with a 4-8 football record year after year.

Jim Tressel didn't have a single fucking thing to do with those scholarships or the students who benefited from them. They were funded before he darkened our door, and they'll be funded long after he is gone. Ohio State was on television all the time before he showed up, and it'll be on television (at least after the next 3 or 4 year window) after he's gone. Ohio State sold ballcaps and jerseys before JT showed up and they'll continue to sell them after he's gone. Ohio Stadium was full for every game before In Tressel We Trust, and it'll be full after he's long gone.

Those athletic scholarships are great, but they're a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall student population

 

[jwinslow]

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

HE is again a singular entity. That ignores the rest of my point.

If you are looking for me to defend TP, it won't happen and has not happened in a long time.

However, if you think I will sit idly while you broadstroke every player/coach relationship in that light, then yessir, you are ignorant to the situation.

I'm not taking any broadstrokes at every (or even the majority of) player-coach relationships at Ohio State or anywhere else.

I'm making a direct observation only about those who cheat and am contending that they do so to win....to win at all costs....to do what they feel necessary to win....to put winning ahead of all other considerations.

As a Nevada native, I remember all the self-serving bull shit that Tarkanian and his supporters claimed to justify his actions; it was the same bull shit that Fresno State supporters were using a half dozen years later. I'm sure it was the same at Oklahoma with Barry Switzer. I'm sure the SMU trustees who maintained that slush fund had their "larger reasons" for what they were doing, as did Luther Campbell a few years later down in South Beach. It all starts to run together.

Coaches cheat to win games and further their careers; nothing more and nothing less.

 

[osugrad21]

\
Coaches cheat to win games and further their careers; nothing more and nothing less.

Yet no broadstrokes.

Define cheating for me. As a Coach, I see you as completely ignorant to the situation. You cite example of Tark, SMU, and Switzwer's late OU years...yet no broadstroke?

Based on your examples, you have proven my point...you have ZERO clue about Player/Coach relationships.

You see one plane here.

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

I'm not taking any broadstrokes at every (or even the majority of) player-coach relationships at Ohio State or anywhere else.

I'm making a direct observation only about those who cheat and am contending that they do so to win....to win at all costs....to do what they feel necessary to win....to put winning ahead of all other considerations.

As a Nevada native, I remember all the self-serving bull [Mark May] that Tarkanian and his supporters claimed to justify his actions; it was the same bull [Mark May] that Fresno State supporters were using a half dozen years later. I'm sure it was the same at Oklahoma with Barry Switzer. I'm sure the SMU trustees who maintained that slush fund had their "larger reasons" for what they were doing, as did Luther Campbell a few years later down in South Beach. It all starts to run together.

Coaches cheat to win games and further their careers; nothing more and nothing less.

So in the entire history of NCAA athletics, no coach has ever broken the rules to protect the eligibility of a third-stringer who the coach knew would never see the field, a third-stringer who had no hope of a college education apart from maintaining his eligibility. It's never, ever happened... right?

 

[jwinslow]

Jim Tressel didn't have a single fucking thing to do with those scholarships or the students who benefited from them. They were funded before he darkened our door, and they'll be funded long after he is gone. Ohio State was on television all the time before he showed up, and it'll be on television (at least after the next 3 or 4 year window) after he's gone. Ohio State sold ballcaps and jerseys before JT showed up and they'll continue to sell them after he's gone. Ohio Stadium was full for every game before In Tressel We Trust, and it'll be full after he's long gone.

Your bitterness is something else.

Of course he isn't the first or the last to generate big sums of cash for Ohio St & their unmatched list of athletic programs.

His success at OSU was legendary, making elite, difficult tasks like top-ten finishes, beating Michigan & earning BCS berths so commonplace that fans treated them as birthrights.

Acting like Tressel's success and that river of revenue didn't have a thing to do with any other scholarships - or the incredible list of athletic facility upgrades during his team's revenue stream - is absolutely laughable.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Yet no broadstrokes.

Define cheating for me. As a Coach, I see you as completely ignorant to the situation. You cite example of Tark, SMU, and Switzwer's late OU years...yet no broadstroke?

Based on your examples, you have proven my point...you have ZERO clue about Player/Coach relationships.

You see one plane here.

I'm not a coach, but I'll do my best to define cheating. I would define "cheating" as doing what's necessary--in direct opposition to the rules of your profession and the terms of your employment contract--in order to recruit star players and/or keep star players eligible for a national championship run. It doesn't necessarily have to rise to the level of an SMU slush fund for athletes. Rather, and I would say in most cases, it is the much more murky area of coaches who are willing to cut corners to get that 5* recruit and/or cut corners to keep him eligible. The reality of ncaa cheating is that it's usually less often Barry Switzer and more often John Wooden--a corner here, a bagman there and always plausible deniability.

Now, that's what I take to be cheating. What we're really arguing about is motive, and I'll stick to my point. Whatever smokescreen of noble intention that bubbles to surface to justify that cheating is a smokescreen. The real reason was that it was done to win games and further careers. Hell, I find it highly ironic that none of these guys--once exposed--ever turns out to have been some kind of public advocate for ncaa reform when all was going well aboard the good ship cheaterpop.

FWIW, the HE I was referring to wasn't TP. I knew JT was dead man walking two weeks before Memorial Day but didn't want to get banned for stating it outright that he was about to be fired or forced out.

Acting like Tressel's success and that river of revenue didn't have a thing to do with any other scholarships - or the incredible list of athletic facility upgrades during his team's revenue stream - is absolutely laughable.

Ohio Stadium renovation: pre-Tressel (1999)
The Schott: pre-Tressel (1998)
Bill Davis Stadium: pre-Tressel (1996)
Jesse Owens Stadium: pre-Tressel (1998)

WHAC upgrade: the "anonymous" donation of an alumnus who's notorious for not giving a crap about athletics, so maybe we'll give him that one.

That's my list. What's the incredible list that he's actually responsible for?

So in the entire history of NCAA athletics, no coach has ever broken the rules to protect the eligibility of a third-stringer who the coach knew would never see the field, a third-stringer who had no hope of a college education apart from maintaining his eligibility. It's never, ever happened... right?

Perhaps it has. Show me where it's happened in our mess, and I might give a [Mark May].

 

[jwinslow]

Hell, I find it highly ironic that none of these guys--once exposed--ever turns out to have been some kind of public advocate for ncaa reform when all was going well aboard the good ship cheaterpop.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what this sentence means. Why would coaches be calling out the NCAA, particularly when their inconsistent and powerless excuse for a governing body arguably does more harm than good when it comes to compliance?

FWIW, the HE I was referring to wasn't TP. I knew JT was dead man walking two weeks before Memorial Day but didn't want to get banned for stating it outright that he was about to be fired or forced out.

I guess most of the nation got the same memo, but you sure are trying hard for that cookie.

 

[jwinslow]

So ORD, who actually gets credit for the revenue streams and scholarship money given to money drains like women's lacrosse? Who can actually be praised for impacting them positively?

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

So ORD, since clearly JT didn't impact a dime with major success and successive revenue dollars, who did impact the revenue streams & scholarships for the girls lacrosse team? Who actually gets credit for that in your eyes?

The Ohio State University, William Oxley Thompson, Chic Harley, Dr Wilce, Francis Schmidt, Paul Brown, Lynn St. John, Woody Hayes, Fred Taylor, Andy Geiger...not to mention Walter Byers and Jim Delany and Mark Silverman and more than a few others who I've neglected.

I don't believe JT "earned millions" for Ohio State any more than I believe that individual players do the same. They are simply cogs in a machine that was built in the early 1920s and nurtured and grown every decade since. Did JT (at least until this past year) add to that legacy and keep it moving forward? Yes. The other side of that coin is that any other coach who had come in would not have altered revenue substantially. Take a look at Michigan's football revenue under DickRod. It didn't die out; they still renovated Michigan Stadium. They still sold out. They still sold t-shirts.

 

[jwinslow]

The Ohio State University, William Oxley Thompson, Chic Harley, Dr Wilce, Francis Schmidt, Paul Brown, Lynn St. John, Woody Hayes, Fred Taylor, Andy Geiger...not to mention Walter Byers and Jim Delany and Mark Silverman and more than a few others who I've neglected.

I don't believe JT "earned millions" for Ohio State any more than I believe that individual players do the same. They are simply cogs in a machine that was built in the early 1920s and nurtured and grown every decade since. Did JT (at least until this past year) add to that legacy and keep it moving forward? Yes. The other side of that coin is that any other coach who had come in would not have altered revenue substantially. Take a look at Michigan's football revenue under DickRod. It didn't die out; they still renovated Michigan Stadium. They still sold out. They still sold t-shirts.

No, they didn't sell out. They had to cold call people just to sell tickets. It started as a perk for existing buyers, but eventually buckeye and Spartan fans were buying Michigan seats at face value. Go ask folks about the attendance at UM NW a few years ago.

I agree it is a remarkable machine set in motion by many before him and will continue long afterwards.

They still would have been hauling in big money with an 8-4 type of program thanks to the state, conference and history. But I don't think it is necessary to strip all credit from the coach who took OSU to a different level of greatness under his watch.

Look at Texas. They still earned an outrageous 120 million, but that is down 23 from the previous season. That is an extreme example but fb coaching success definitely impacts the rest of the athletic programs.