Yahoo, Tattoos, and tOSU (1-year bowl ban, 82 scholly limit for 3 years)

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Pryor's mom and brother fall under the same set of rules as TP himself.

Tell that to Cecil Newton....

 

[CleveBucks]

this is not surprising in the least...i dont know how many players ive seen or know that have awesome cars that you have to wonder how they received them...i lived next door to shane olivea in 2002-2003 and he had the [Mark May]tiest car i have ever seen...dude barely even fit in it...and he had that car until the day he was drafted by the chargers...and when he got drafted i think he went out and got a brand new S-10.

Luis Irizarry used to drive one of those Olds minivans that was shaped ike a dustbuster.

 

[BB73]

The Dispatch article quoted your compliance guy - yesterday - as saying he would begin reviewing/investigating the sales to make sure no rules were broken. Is that story wrong Max, or are you saying the investigation was completed that quickly? In either case, do you have a link?

I see where Pryor's mom and brother bought cars too. Anyone know if only sales to players' cars are investigated, or if all sales, including those to family and friends of players on the examination table too?

Your statement makes it sound as if Archie and tOSU compliance are looking at the car sales for the first time. The Dispatch also said this:

Archie said that he was aware of all the transactions involving the athletes that The Dispatch found, but he was unaware of purchases made by their relatives.


Both dealers, whose businesses are not connected, say they routinely call Archie's office when an athlete is ready to buy a car, provide the purchase price and discuss who will co-sign on a loan. Archie said he relies on the car dealers to provide accurate information.


"I'm not a car expert. We have to rely on their integrity and their word when it comes to selling a car," he said. Ohio State runs "spot checks" on some transactions against the Kelley Blue Book value.


Archie said that he'd rather one or two dealerships didn't receive all the OSU business. "It's something from a compliance perspective that I would rather not have," he said.

Cont'd ...

 

[RB07OSU]

Do you not think the tOSU compliance dept should be playing a bigger role here as well as JT? This stinks and I don't like it one bit. We (me included) have all turned a blind eye towards this for several years now.

Absolutely. Pryor has a killer Charger and so does Boom. I have always wondered about that.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Except that Gibson claims he is still paying the car off. That should be simple enough to prove on Gibson's part, and suggests that maybe this dealer was running a scam that managed to be a good enough front for the players and some in the compliance department. I'll trust a player that claims he's paying off a car over a dealer who is evidently several hundred thousand deep in trouble with the IRS.

I think there's a little too much reaction by those who were unfortunately right about the JT improprieties to "jump off the cliff" with this news. My first impression was that this smells like a massive scam that tOSU is unfortunately caught up in by no ill-intent of their own. I'll hold the impression of an unfortunately well executed scam until Compliance or the NCAA turns over evidence proving there were known benefits here.

I may have misread it but the salesman is the one in arrears to the IRS, not the dealership. People don't make payments to their salesman.

Calling the scenario in which a car dealer tells the state they sold cars for $0 while collecting payments under the table a well executed scam of some sort is a pretty significant reach. It just makes no business sense, it wouldn't work for any length of time. Contrary to the stereotype, most dealers are neither that unscrupulous or stupid. If they are going to chisel they'll do it a thousand different ways more subtle, imaginative and sustainable than that.

The certificate of title on file with the State of Ohio (per the article) says a player paid $0 for a two year old, low mileage car. The player in question says otherwise.

Someone is lying v2.0.

As someone else mentioned, the high frequency of players at these 2 dealers is bad enough, then you throw in relatives it's worse. Then you have the dealers/salesmen on the sidelines of games and the rationalizations start to get pretty weak pretty quick.

There is a simple way to check this though. You need old copies of the NADA black book guide that dealers use to price used cars from the months in question. Those books show prices from left to right in columns, rough book to extra clean book, which is the lingo for wholesale to retail basically.

You then simply audit the sale prices they submitted to the state and look at two pools; the players/families and the general public. You use the public pool as the baseline and determine the standard deviation from the retail price that the average customer pays. Then you simply do the same with the players/families pool and if the deviation from retail is significant (like FREE would be) then you have a clear cut case of improper benefits.

In the court of common sense if the wholesale on a car is $10K and retail is $15K a significant amount of purchases closer to 10 than 15 should raise more red flags than a Chinese army parade. Car dealers don't stay in business long selling for wholesale. Unless of course they are getting something else of equal or greater value in return for a transaction that isn't showing on the paperwork they send to the state.

 

[billmac91]

Doug Archie said there was no evidence that any of the players' deals was a problem, but that he would re-review everything related to them. He also said he was not familiar with car purchases by family members, but that he would review those deals also. Same story, I think:

Ohio State to investigate players' car deals; Official: No known problems with dozens of sales

Archie said that he has spoken to Kniffin only once, never reviews sales documents and has not directed players to any dealerships. Archie said that he was aware of all the transactions involving the athletes that The Dispatch found, but he was unaware of purchases made by their relatives.


Archie said that he'd rather one or two dealerships didn't receive all the OSU business. "It's something from a compliance perspective that I would rather not have," he said.

The common thread in those two dozen transactions was the salesman: Aaron Kniffin, who has worked at both dealerships

Sounds like there's some detective work to do...

 

[bassbuckeye07]

I may have misread it but the salesman is the one in arrears to the IRS, not the dealership. People don't make payments to their salesman.

Calling the scenario in which a car dealer tells the state they sold cars for $0 while collecting payments under the table a well executed scam of some sort is a pretty significant reach. It just makes no business sense, it wouldn't work for any length of time. Contrary to the stereotype, most dealers are neither that unscrupulous or stupid. If they are going to chisel they'll do it a thousand different ways more subtle, imaginative and sustainable than that.

The certificate of title on file with the State of Ohio (per the article) says a player paid $0 for a two year old, low mileage car. The player in question says otherwise.

Someone is lying v2.0.

As someone else mentioned, the high frequency of players at these 2 dealers is bad enough, then you throw in relatives it's worse. Then you have the dealers/salesmen on the sidelines of games and the rationalizations start to get pretty weak pretty quick.

There is a simple way to check this though. You need old copies of the NADA black book guide that dealers use to price used cars from the months in question. Those books show prices from left to right in columns, rough book to extra clean book, which is the lingo for wholesale to retail basically.

You then simply audit the sale prices they submitted to the state and look at two pools; the players/families and the general public. You use the public pool as the baseline and determine the standard deviation from the retail price that the average customer pays. Then you simply do the same with the players/families pool and if the deviation from retail is significant (like FREE would be) then you have a clear cut case of improper benefits.

In the court of common sense if the wholesale on a car is $10K and retail is $15K a significant amount of purchases closer to 10 than 15 should raise more red flags than a Chinese army parade. Car dealers don't stay in business long selling for wholesale. Unless of course they are getting something else of equal or greater value in return for a transaction that isn't showing on the paperwork they send to the state.

I thought they would post 0 to avoid sales tax.....either way i remember my mom bought me a car in high school and it had to be one dollar for recording puposes....ill bet it was an error...but I just lost 16 dollars on the derby so im not that good at betting

 

[scarletmike]

When I said "dealer" in that quote, I meant Kniffin specifically. I didn't get the idea that the owner of the Chevy dealer is in any previous issue or that he would have been blatantly involved. Kniffin, however, appears to have a very questionable track record. Did Gibson buy from the Chevy Dealer, or the Auto Direct place? Someone is lying, but I'll believe a player over someone on the hook with the IRS.

Archie seemed a little confused with the allegations from his wording, and if they really were reviewed previously, then I don't think there's an issue. Compliance turned up the Tressel situation, and I don't remember who brought the original tattoo issue to light. But it doesn't seem that our compliance department has been withholding information in any of this.

 

[MaxBuck]

I may have misread it but the salesman is the one in arrears to the IRS, not the dealership. People don't make payments to their salesman. Not unless they're naive, stupid, or inexperienced. Like, or example, a young person.

Calling the scenario in which a car dealer tells the state they sold cars for $0 while collecting payments under the table a well executed scam of some sort is a pretty significant reach. It just makes no business sense, it wouldn't work for any length of time. Contrary to the stereotype, most dealers are neither that unscrupulous or stupid. If they are going to chisel they'll do it a thousand different ways more subtle, imaginative and sustainable than that. Dealers are usually more scrupulous than the salespeople they employ - but not always.

The certificate of title on file with the State of Ohio (per the article) says a player paid $0 for a two year old, low mileage car. The player in question says otherwise.

Someone is lying v2.0. Pretty obvious.

As someone else mentioned, the high frequency of players at these 2 dealers is bad enough, then you throw in relatives it's worse. "Bad enough?" Why, exactly? It's not the athletic department's job to make sure every dealer in town gets their fair share of player business. Then you have the dealers/salesmen on the sidelines of games and the rationalizations start to get pretty weak pretty quick. Rationalizations? I haven't seen any of those. What are they?

There is a simple way to check this though. You need old copies of the NADA black book guide that dealers use to price used cars from the months in question. Those books show prices from left to right in columns, rough book to extra clean book, which is the lingo for wholesale to retail basically. Kind of like what our compliance staff have been doing all along, then?

You then simply audit the sale prices they submitted to the state and look at two pools; the players/families and the general public. You use the public pool as the baseline and determine the standard deviation from the retail price that the average customer pays. Then you simply do the same with the players/families pool and if the deviation from retail is significant (like FREE would be) then you have a clear cut case of improper benefits.

In the court of common sense if the wholesale on a car is $10K and retail is $15K a significant amount of purchases closer to 10 than 15 should raise more red flags than a Chinese army parade. Car dealers don't stay in business long selling for wholesale. Unless of course they are getting something else of equal or greater value in return for a transaction that isn't showing on the paperwork they send to the state.

The sky just isn't falling here. It's been stated that "nearly half of the sales prices were below NADA." Whoopie. The other half were at or above, which is statistically about what one would expect. Unless there's a clear pattern in which "star" players fall below Blue Book much more frequently than the run-of-the-mill players, there's no issue.

 

[Jaxbuck]

I thought they would post 0 to avoid sales tax.....either way i remember my mom bought me a car in high school and it had to be one dollar for recording puposes....ill bet it was an error...but I just lost 16 dollars on the derby so im not that good at betting

Yeah you would want to make the number low for tax purposes but you sure as hell wouldn't want to make a habit of it if you wanted to stay in business.

I agree with you that $0 looks so crazy it could very well be an error but there's something rotten in Denmark if 40-50 players and their families are hitting this place/following this salesman.

When I said "dealer" in that quote, I meant Kniffin specifically. I didn't get the idea that the owner of the Chevy dealer is in any previous issue or that he would have been blatantly involved. Kniffin, however, appears to have a very questionable track record. Did Gibson buy from the Chevy Dealer, or the Auto Direct place? Someone is lying, but I'll believe a player over someone on the hook with the IRS.

It isn't Gibson's word vs the salesman from what I can see. It's Gibson's word vs the document the dealership sent to the state. There are pretty well established system of checks and balances inside the back office of a dealer to keep salespeople from being able to run any type of "take the car and pay me" kind of scams. Its virtually impossible unless its some kind of dirt lot 3 man operation which I don't get the sense it is.

Archie seemed a little confused with the allegations from his wording, and if they really were reviewed previously, then I don't think there's an issue. Compliance turned up the Tressel situation, and I don't remember who brought the original tattoo issue to light. But it doesn't seem that our compliance department has been withholding information in any of this.

The part that's disconcerting to me is how finely worded his response was to accentuate his not being responsible for knowing what is a "correct" price. Just my perception but its screams "plausible deniability/that's what the lawyers told me to say".

Feels very much like a bungled press conference or 3 we've heard lately.

 

[Gatorubet]

The sky just isn't falling here. It's been stated that "nearly half of the sales prices were below NADA." Whoopie. The other half were at or above, which is statistically about what one would expect. Unless there's a clear pattern in which "star" players fall below Blue Book much more frequently than the run-of-the-mill players, there's no issue.

Now, if half were 5% above and half were 40% below, it would be BC powder time. But nothing about that sounds strange, other than him saying compliance sends him customers.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Not unless they're naive, stupid, or inexperienced. Like, or example, a young person

How preytell do you think the salesmen in question is going to overcome the dealer asking where his car/money are in the case of the one rouge salesman theory?

Dealers are usually more scrupulous than the salespeople they employ - but not always.

See comment above, they are also smarter and more experienced. They have checks and balances built in to keep a salesman from doing this type of thing that are effective a very high percentage of the time.

"Bad enough?" Why, exactly? It's not the athletic department's job to make sure every dealer in town gets their fair share of player business

For the same reason the OSU compliance official said he didn't like it, it gives the impression of impropriety at the very least.

Rationalizations? I haven't seen any of those. What are they?

Oh I don't know, how about the instant "OSU is the victim of a well conceived scam put on them by these dealers" type of stuff.

Kind of like what our compliance staff have been doing all along, then?

No actually the compliance guy goes out of his way to say he isn't responsible for checking the prices, isn't a car expert and relies on the integrity of the dealers. Besides if they were actually doing it how do they miss something as glaring as Thad Gibson's freemobile?

The sky just isn't falling here. It's been stated that "nearly half of the sales prices were below NADA." Whoopie. The other half were at or above, which is statistically about what one would expect. Unless there's a clear pattern in which "star" players fall below Blue Book much more frequently than the run-of-the-mill players, there's no issue.

If one were so unfamiliar with the process he thought it was a 2 outcome event I guess. It isn't. You aren't flipping coins, you dealing with data points on a distribution curve.

You would, as I outlined above, use standard deviation from the far right retail number.

 

[Mike80]

no surprise this non-story is on the front page of eSp1n.com

 

[strohs]

No actually the compliance guy goes out of his way to say he isn't responsible for checking the prices, isn't a car expert and relies on the integrity of the dealers. Besides if they were actually doing it how do they miss something as glaring as Thad Gibson's freemobile?

Probably because there is a mistake somewhere and it wasn't actually free...
This whole thing is a non-issue IMO.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

As fun as it is speculating and such, might I remind you that The Ohio State men's volleyball team is currently 1 set away from winning the national championship on ESPN2.

If you have it, why don't you take a break from this bullshit and watch!