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Transgendered decathlete (formerly known as Bruce) Caitlyn Jenner

For all of their faults, I have to admit that Millennials are the most accepting of people who have different lifestyles. I could give two shots about Bruce Jenner, I just hope that the young people have an easier time because of what he is doing.
Being "confused about one's gender" is a mental condition, and not a simple personal decision or life choice like so many LGBT stone-throwers scream it is. Those with the condition need counseling help, not adulation.

What's next, being expected to be more accepting of pedophiles?
 
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Being "confused about one's gender" is a mental condition, and not a simple personal decision or life choice like so many LGBT stone-throwers scream it is. Those with the condition need counseling help, not adulation.

What's next, being expected to be more accepting of pedophiles?
Agree to disagree about the first part. I will say that I'm not pushing for adulation, just tolerance. If people come to terms with their feelings on the subject because of a celebrity, I think it's a lot better than a fourteen year old being bullied until they commit suicide.

And pedophiles??
 
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Being "confused about one's gender" is a mental condition, and not a simple personal decision or life choice like so many LGBT stone-throwers scream it is. Those with the condition need counseling help, not adulation.

What's next, being expected to be more accepting of pedophiles?

Terrible comparison.
One isn't hurting anyone. If someone wants to wear clothes that typically "belong" to the opposite sex, and behave and want to be treated as the opposite sex, then why should you, or anyone else give a Wolverine's fart?
The second one is very much hurting someone.

Agree to disagree about the first part. I will say that I'm not pushing for adulation, just tolerance. If people come to terms with their feelings on the subject because of a celebrity, I think it's a lot better than a fourteen year old being bullied until they commit suicide.

I agree. Someone shouldn't be celebrated because he is different. That person can be proud of those differences, if he wants. For example, I don't go to Gay Pride Parades. I won't celebrate someone's homosexuality. I don't "celebrate" St. Patrick's Day (other than drinking beer - but I don't celebrate anyone being Irish, or whatever the hell else that day is for). I don't learn any Black History during Black History month. But all of those should be tolerated. If you're gay or transgendered or black or Irish or none of those or any combination of those, I don't see anything "wrong" with that.
 
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I agree. Someone shouldn't be celebrated because he is different. That person can be proud of those differences, if he wants. For example, I don't go to Gay Pride Parades. I won't celebrate someone's homosexuality. I don't "celebrate" St. Patrick's Day (other than drinking beer - but I don't celebrate anyone being Irish, or whatever the hell else that day is for). I don't learn any Black History during Black History month. But all of those should be tolerated. If you're gay or transgendered or black or Irish or none of those or any combination of those, I don't see anything "wrong" with that.

Exactly. There is no more reason to celebrate anyone for being Irish, African-American or gay (things that are just natural or you have no choice in or don't choose to be,) as there is reason to hate someone for being the very same things. If we can't or shouldn't hate you for it, because it just is what it is, then you shouldn't be celebrated for it either, because it just is what it is.

Now if you, yourself, are proud and would like to celebrate your heritage or race or sexual orientation and what not, feel free to do so. But please, do not expect praise from others for just being what you naturally are. You have done nothing to earn that praise any more than I have earned praise for being a white male born in Ohio. I can celebrate living in Ohio and I could celebrate being a man as well as being white (I'm not racist at all but I just feel like openly celebrating being white would definitely be looked at that way. Is that a racist thing to say? Oh shit. Now I'm a racist!) but I didn't do anything special and I don't expect others to look at me and say "Hey, look at him, he's so courageous for being something he had no choice in being!"
 
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Being "confused about one's gender" is a mental condition, and not a simple personal decision or life choice like so many LGBT stone-throwers scream it is. Those with the condition need counseling help, not adulation.

What's next, being expected to be more accepting of pedophiles?

Outside of the obvious absurdity of comparing transgender people to pedophiles, what scientific support do you have for gender misidentity being a mental health condition? And what counseling help do you propose would be effective?
 
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Outside of the obvious absurdity of comparing transgender people to pedophiles, what scientific support do you have for gender misidentity being a mental health condition? And what counseling help do you propose would be effective?
Gender Dysphoria (or previously called Gender Identity Disorder) is a psychological condition.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender dysphoria fact sheet.pdf

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/gender-dysphoria-symptoms/

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx
 
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1) No one should be bullied, discriminated against of looked down upon. That's pretty basic stuff wherever you fall on the issue.

2) I hate Mili's comparison.

3) It's patently false to suggest that this does not affect other people who feel differently. Treating gender as a subjective concept causes a lot of confusion, doubt and consternation for all parties, especially as this grows from tolerance to education in schools with younger, insecure people trying to discover and define themselves.

But then today's society is very fond of subjective concepts and their proximity to feelings and emotions as barometers of morality and truth. Relying on feelings is a very natural approach - and one I indulge in too often - but I've never found it to be a reliable or trustworthy approach to life. Typically it satisfies more basic needs and gives little thought to the obstacles and consequences resulting from that urgent quest.

To me, same-sex marriage is a much simpler issue because the government really shouldn't be involved in any cultural or religious unions. Any additional designations should be handled privately. There are lots of styles of marriage and even approaches to the same type of marriage. That is a much different encounter than teaching an awkward teenager that he may be wrong about his sexuality and gender.

I'm not sure how one goes about properly supporting and protecting people struggling with this issue without endorsing and teaching it, even by default.
 
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Here's a hypothetical that will help create a shitstorm--I did not think of this on my own, but it was very provoking.

If a black man or woman began undergoing treatments to lighten the pigment of their skin because he or she identified more as White and they felt they were trapped in a Black person's body, this would be considered horrible by many and the larger culture/society would be blamed for perpetuating such thoughts. Yet, when it comes to a case like Jenner, this issue is never raised--i.e. the culture/society isn't blamed for perpetuating the thoughts that led him to seek a switch.

So, what's the difference? Especially in light of race being much more of a social construction than sex/gender?
 
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So we acknowledge that we have a medical condition over which these people have no control. Great. Now show me how counseling fixes that condition. Or, better yet, if these people feel better after changing gender, is that not a good thing for that person?
 
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I'm not sure how one goes about properly supporting and protecting people struggling with this issue without endorsing and teaching it, even by default.

If it's a genuine medical condition, then I think we go about it like we would anyone with any other medical condition. First, we don't ostracize the person to make them feel bad about something over which they had no control. Second, we identify proper methods of treatment, including gender reclassification, if that's effective.

If that's support and protection, so be it. I would generally agree that it's probably not appropriate for a younger person, who is still finding themselves, to be told that they may have this condition. It's something that should wait until adulthood to diagnose.
 
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Or, better yet, if these people feel better after changing gender, is that not a good thing for that person?

Do they? I'm genuinely asking. My understanding is that longitudinal research shows no long-term sense of "feeling better" by most individuals as they continue to contend with dysphoria.

However, I've never looked into it, just referencing conversations I've heard from sources I trust.
 
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If it's a genuine medical condition, then I think we go about it like we would anyone with any other medical condition. First, we don't ostracize the person to make them feel bad about something over which they had no control. Second, we identify proper methods of treatment, including gender reclassification, if that's effective.

If that's support and protection, so be it. I would generally agree that it's probably not appropriate for a younger person, who is still finding themselves, to be told that they may have this condition. It's something that should wait until adulthood to diagnose.
There was a really good south park episode on this subject. That show is such an unusual blend of on-point social commentary and immature histrionics.

South park S18E03 The Cissy on Vimeo

It touched on the struggles and blowback for those struggling with this issue but also drove home the amount of confusion and self-doubt brought about by the school acknowledging transgender issues directly (including separate bathrooms). Naturally the reviewer below had a very different perspective on the confusion it brought about.
Glowing review from a transgender person

It's a solid synopsis overall, though there are some whoppers like this, particularly the opening line
Anyway, all the right-wing bloggers already hate my guts for daring to suggest that infants are too young to have gender, so I'm just going to go ahead and say this: I love the idea of 10-year-olds questioning their gender. Here's the thing about questioning your gender: It doesn't actually change the way you feel inside, it just helps you look deep enough to know yourself best. The only reason we associate questioning with transition is because society punishes, so brutally, any variance from cis, that most people would avoid publicly revealing that they're questioning themselves. At least until and unless it became so painfully obvious that they are likely trans, that for them they just couldn't avoid it any more. Stan may be questioning his gender because he's been exposed to trans ideas, but that isn't going to make him trans, unless he was already destined to be that way—in which case, it would only help him get there faster, earlier, and much less painfully. Questioning is good.
That's the type of thing that is gaining traction and which concerns me, especially as schools will almost certainly have to take steps to be respectful and accomodating.
 
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