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Talking Religion...

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Buckeyeskickbuttocks said:
A good point. But, morality isn't like math, is it? I mean - who is to say if holding belief A is right or belief B? There are arguments for both. There is no argument that will defeat adding the number 1 to the number 1 will result in the number 2.
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I may be showing my nerdiness here, but I enjoyed math in school. Oddly enough proofs were some of my favorite exercises. If you've got a big proof one bad line could invalidate the answer to the problem. 1 + 1 is a simple proof but trig proofs are much more complicated. There is a right answer about morality, whether it's a-morality like you think or divinely given morality that I think. But I really do believe it comes down to those 2 options. I think maybe saying a-morality is no different to me than doing what pleases oneslef is will help.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks said:
Same question I had for bgrad - how can you say that when Brew is here talking about being an atheist who behaves morally? Have neither of you ever met an atheist who isn't in prison? I'm not trying to obtuse, but I just don't understand how you can deny evidence that sits right before your faces. (assuming you believe Brew, of course).
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Sure, people believe in false things all the time? Isn't that what many say about us? Just because we believe it doesn't make it true.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1797805; said:
Same question I had for bgrad - how can you say that when Brew is here talking about being an atheist who behaves morally? Have neither of you ever met an atheist who isn't in prison? I'm not trying to obtuse, but I just don't understand how you can deny evidence that sits right before your faces. (assuming you believe Brew, of course).
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Good question. Some of the most generous, selfless and philanthropic individuals in the world are not religious (such as Warren Buffett, Bill and Melinda Gates, George Soros, etc.). I have a hard time believing that any study exists that will show agnostics and atheists are less moral/law abiding than religious individuals.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1797819; said:
So, even though he behaves morally, he's not really moral? I still don't follow.
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t_BuckeyeScott;1797812; said:
Sure, people believe in false things all the time? Isn't that what many say about us? Just because we believe it doesn't make it true.
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We are arguing "who is moral" without defining morality. If it is not eating shrimp and lobster because the Bible said so, I'll just continue eating oysters Bienville and barbecued shrimp and think anyone advancing that prohibition as a "moral" choice is sadly deluded.

OTOH, the fact that I do not enter a young couples home, rape the wife, murder the husband and steal their things - killing their crying baby as I leave because it's loud noise annoys me - well, I think that there is a universal human understanding that such acts would be malum in se rather than the shellfish malum prohibitum.

The fact that violating one rule has no seeming consequences - and violating the other rules universally brings pain, sorrow, and heartbreak to friends, relatives and even unrelated individuals who learn of the deed - makes the question of what is meant by "moral" a prerequisite to be answered before we attempt to figure out whether one can live a moral life sans religion.
 
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Gatorubet;1797826; said:
We are arguing "who is moral" without defining morality. If it is not eating shrimp and lobster because the Bible said so, I'll just continue eating oysters Bienville and barbecued shrimp and think anyone advancing that prohibition as a "moral" choice is sadly deluded.
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Or to take your example to a further extreme, is it moral to take an innocent newborn male (supposedly created in perfect form by God) and chop the end of its penis off because the bible said so?

As someone once said: Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but only religion can make good people do bad things.
 
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Brewtus;1797838; said:
Or to take your example to a further extreme, is it moral to take an innocent newborn male (supposedly created in perfect form by God) and chop the end of its penis off because the bible said so?

As someone once said: Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but only religion can make good people do bad things.
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Oh - ethnicity, familial relationships and nationalism can too, so I dunno about "only"
 
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Gatorubet;1797841; said:
Oh - ethnicity, familial relationships and nationalism can too, so I dunno about "only"
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Okay, so I was lazy and didn't look up the exact quote. It was from the physicist Steven Weinberg and he was quoted in the New York Times as saying:

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
 
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buckeyegrad;1797688; said:
Those who would argue that Nietzshe's non-theistic morality does not contain compassion really doesn't understand Nietzshe. He doesn't do away with compasion, but rather he re-defines it.

If we look at apes and see compassion, it is only because we are projecting our own understanding of what compassion is onto them. How we in the West view compasion is based upon 2000 years of influence by the Judeo-Christian point of view--even if one rejects that view, they cannot escape its influence on his/her thinking.

Nietzshe however showed that in a truly non-theistic morality, compassion looks much different. For example, not showing mercy to the less fortunate is actually the most compassionate think to do, because the most compassionate thing to do is to have them no longer exist. If we take this point of view, the ape communities may not be judged as showing compassion anymore.
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Humans have acted compassionately long before Christianity. And humans act compassionately from non-Judeo-Christian backgrounds. Add that to recent observations of apes and there is a strong argument for morals/compassion being inherited in our collective DNA from a very early time.
Nietzshe has always been controversial. That's what makes him so interesting.
 
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Gatorubet;1797826; said:
...the fact that I do not enter a young couples home, rape the wife, murder the husband and steal their things - killing their crying baby as I leave because it's loud noise annoys me - well, I think that there is a universal human understanding that such acts would be malum in se rather than the shellfish malum prohibitum.
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Merde.

You do not do such things because you live in a place where such young couples have shotguns and other similar armaments. Do not attempt to place the prom dress on the pig in this fashion. Cela n'empeche que le cochon.
 
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