Talking Religion...

[Taosman]

"yes, saying you believe something but not actually believing it is dishonest."

How are we to tell who actually believes? What are the parameters for making that judgement? Because that's what we're talking about.
A judgement.
I fully appreciate your passion and seeming good faith, josh. But.
I think it's way to complicated to try and quantify some one's belief. Or to "value" how much a person's belief is worth to them.

 

[jwinslow]

So I selected some posts to split off the discussion, didn't finish, so when deleted a troll post from last night it went with it.

Anyway, I concede my argument was faulty, I view it as adultery against the future spouse (typically involved in the justification of the premarital sex)



Max, what is your reaction to the polls posted?

 

[MaxBuck]

Max, what is your reaction to the polls posted?

Not sure what you mean by this, jwins, but whatever I wrote that was deleted, I'm sure the world can do very well without reading.

 

[Jake]

Getting back to my earlier point...

There are 20 known religions in the world with 500 thousand or more practitioners.

Major Religions Ranked by Size

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
5. Buddhism: 376 million
6. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
7. Sikhism: 23 million
8. Juche: 19 million
9. Spiritism: 15 million
10. Judaism: 14 million
11. Baha'i: 7 million
12. Jainism: 4.2 million
13. Shinto: 4 million
14. Cao Dai: 4 million
15. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
16. Tenrikyo: 2 million
17. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
18. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
19. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
20. Scientology: 500 thousand

For every person who faithfully believes in one of those gods there are millions more who think that person's god is imaginary. Likewise, the faithful person believes everyone else's god is imaginary, usually without ever having looked into the other religions at all. How can one be so sure their god is real, and everyone else's is bullshit? Usually because they were raised in an environment where their god was presented as the one and only true god, and they never questioned it.

There is no evidence any of them are real. Think about it, if one of the many popular gods existed and was bestowing benefits on its followers, answering prayers and rewarding their faith it would be apparent to the rest of the world, whose gods are imaginary. Are any of these groups living under obvious divine intervention, separating themselves and their real god from all of the imaginary ones? Nope. They are all following their religious dogma, based solely on blind faith, believing they will be rewarded for it at some point. And yet, no evidence of any such rewards exist.

Could it be they're all wasting their time? It seems more than likely. If that was all there was to it I wouldn't care, but when billions of dollars and thousands of lives are wasted in this foolish pursuit of eternal life (or whatever carrot is promised by the religion), it's a huge problem for the rest of us. :ohwell:

 

[jwinslow]

For every person who faithfully believes in one of those gods there are millions more who think that person's god is imaginary.

I'm guessing you didn't major in math.

Likewise, the faithful person believes everyone else's god is imaginary, usually without ever having looked into the other religion at all.

Jake, because you've demonstrated that exact problem in this thread regarding your understanding of basic tenants of Christianity, which is a different discussion from acceptance/rejection of them (like multiple outspoken BPers have done and engaged intellectually about their rejections).

Attending church, even for a decade, doesn't ensure an understanding of the context & teachings of the entire Word (instead, it's fragmented nature can lend itself to isolated teachings if it isn't properly supplemented outside of 1-2 church events). Note: I say this from experience.

I have my doubts that you've investigated Buddish & Islam well enough to cast stones about understanding other religions. I've studied it fairly consistently for a few years and am probably not qualified to cast those stones.

How can one be so sure their god is real, and everyone else's is bullshit, so easily? Usually because they were raised in an environment where their god was presented as the one and only true god, and they never questioned it.

When your goal is to call out self-absorbed ignorance and hatred, it's pretty self-defeating to spew hateful, ignorant stereotypes to make that point.

 

[jwinslow]

Not sure what you mean by this, jwins, but whatever I wrote that was deleted, I'm sure the world can do very well without reading.

See the links below. Didn't realize they were gone too.

btw, the rest of the Max/JW lost BP scrolls consisted of a rabbit trail about premarital fornication vs adultery.

"yes, saying you believe something but not actually believing it is dishonest."

How are we to tell who actually believes? What are the parameters for making that judgement? Because that's what we're talking about.
A judgement.
I fully appreciate your passion and seeming good faith, josh. But.
I think it's way to complicated to try and quantify some one's belief. Or to "value" how much a person's belief is worth to them.

Just realized I never responded again to this post after wiping out half of the page by accident.

I wasn't questioning whether their faith is earnest and honest, though I see how it came across that way.

That's very difficult to discern for a human being, if not impossible. Even unquestionably unchristian behavior may reveal a more complex situation than merely a lack of true belief. All of us stumble because of our sinful nature, which might be followed by repentance soon or not for some time, hence the last sentence.

I was referring to the recent and substantial movement in the American Christian community where many core beliefs are being rewritten by individuals.

Satan isn't real
the Holy Spirit is merely symbolic
Christ isn't the only way to heaven
No need to attend church or other corporate worship/groups

There are certain topics which are debatable in the Bible, but there's no room in the Scriptures for those world views given their frequency and importance throughout the Bible.

 

[Jake]

Religions in history:

The pre-Christian god Mithras was born on December 25th. Mithras was called the Son of God and the Light of the World, was buried in a rock tomb and resurrected 3 days later.

When Krishna was born he was presented gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

According to Egyptians 3000 years before the birth of Jesus, Isis - a virgin, by the way - gave birth to Horus on December 25th in a cave. His birth was attended by 3 wise men, who followed a star to get there. His father was the god Osiris.

Gee, this sounds strangely familiar. The more you study religions, the more you realize the modern ones are just as mythical as those that came before them.

 

[Gatorubet]

Religions in history:

The pre-Christian god Mithras was born on December 25th. Mithras was called the Son of God and the Light of the World, was buried in a rock tomb and resurrected 3 days later.

When Krishna was born he was presented gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

According to Egyptians 3000 years before the birth of Jesus, Isis - a virgin, by the way - gave birth to Horus on December 25th in a cave. His birth was attended by 3 wise men, who followed a star to get there. His father was the god Osiris.

Gee, this sounds strangely familiar. The more you study religions, the more you realize the modern ones are just as mythical as those that came before them.

Jake, you need to rely on more than some e-mail floating around to make such ridiculous assertions. I call bullshit on your whole post - aside from the fact that religions existed centered on Mithras, Isis, Christ and Krishna.

Find any support (other than the ill-researched web untruths) that any of the divine entities "were born on December 25". No serious Christian theologian believes that Christ was "born on December 25." The bible sure as hell does not say that. Krishna was not presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh at his birth. He simply was not. Isis was not a virgin when Horus was born/conceived. She was married to Osiris, and there is no story of her being a virgin. Granted, Seth killing and chopping up Osiris - and Isis putting him back together and fucking him is pretty miraculous - but it ain't a virgin birth. And his birth was not accompanied by three wise men, and for that matter the Bible does not say anything about three wise men either, much less name them. Mithras was not born in a cave, but created out of rock (and as an adult at that) or out of a mountain. And he never died, much less died and rose three days later. At least not in any pre-Christian writings. It would be news to Zoroaster in any event.

Many religions have a basis or history that includes celebrations at the arrival of the winter solstice. Christianity did indeed pick up some of this. See the Yule log and mistletoe for example. But despite culture shaping religion (Mayday and May poles were a part of my elementary school experience before the Born Agains banned it as ob de debbil....but I digress) they are NOT the same religion and not copied from each other...saving the Flood story, which is likely the Gilgamesh Epic retold or at least derived from the same ancient source.


You need to find better atheist material than that.

 

[jwinslow]

The more you study religions

If you want to study them, these links will give you some meat to chew on instead of sizzle:
"Zeitgeist" Online Movie: Part One Refuted
copycat
http://confidentchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/07/resurrection-myths-vs-resurrection-of.html

the more you realize the modern ones are just as mythical as those that came before them.

Or the more you realize that these aren't recent allegations or credible.

Gee, this sounds strangely familiar.

Yes, it sounds like very well-known fiction that relies upon misleading and false claims (Dan Brown made a fortune with similar entertaining but false entertainment). Are there some similarities between Christianity and other religions? Yes, but these aren't among them.

The pre-Christian god Mithras was born on December 25th. Mithras was called the Son of God and the Light of the World, was buried in a rock tomb and resurrected 3 days later.

1. The Dec 25th date has no relevance or mention in Christianity and Jesus' birthdate, unless you are concerned about the parallels between Mithras & Santa.
2. Ronald Nash: "Mithraism had no concept of the death and resurrection of its god and no place for any concept of rebirth—at least during its early stages.” 40
3. As for the titles, see the long quote below
4. The rock/tomb thing is backwards, that's how he was born
5. Not really on the resurrected parallel.

We have several titles here, and yea, though I searched through the works of Mithraic scholars, I found none of these applied to Mithra, other than the role of mediator (not, though, in the sense of a mediator between God and man because of sin, but as a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods; we have seen the "sun" identification, but never that title) -- not even the new ones were ever listed by the Mithraic scholars.
There is a reference to a "Logos" that was taught to the Mithraic initiates [MS.206](in the Roman evidence, which is again, significantly after the establishment of Christianity), but let it be remembered that "logos" means "word" and goes back earlier in Judaism to Philo -- Christians borrowed the idea from Philo, perhaps, or from the general background of the word, but not from Mithraism.

When Krishna was born he was presented gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

1. Krishna was born in a prison.
2. They were held in prison by his King & uncle Kansa, because it was foretold that the baby would grow up to kill Kansa.
3. Not only were there no visiting hours at this prison, but the birth was done in secret.
4. They were in prison so Kansa could kill the baby once it was born.
5. This wasn't his first family imprisonment, as he became King by imprisoning his own father (who was the king)
6. Through divine power, they snuck Krishna out of the prison and swapped him with another baby
7. Prisons & lavish gifts don't really go together anyway

According to Egyptians 3000 years before the birth of Jesus, Isis - a virgin, by the way - gave birth to Horus on December 25th in a cave.

1. Isis was not a virgin
2. While in falcon form, Isis was impregnated by a dead but erect Osiris. He had to be re-assembled before the sex.
3. Horus was born in October/November
4. Jesus has no specified birthdate in the Bible, let alone December 25th
5. Horus was born in a swamp

His birth was attended by 3 wise men, who followed a star to get there.

1. Neither Jesus or Horus was born with wise men in attendance
2. Jesus was a toddler when the wise men arrived in an unknown quantity
3. Horus' birth wasn't announced by a star

 

[MaxBuck]

... Isis was impregnated by a dead but erect Osiris. He had to be re-assembled before the sex.

Hmm. My wife called me "Osiris" last night. Kind of smirked when she said it. Could she have been telling me something ...

 

[Taosman]

Specific similarities between Jesus and Krishna. (personally, I don't consider Krishna an actual person but an archetype as is more typical of Hinduism.) There is much better evidence that Jesus existed than Krishna,also.

Similarities between two god-men saviors: Jesus and Krishna

The poet Rumi writes, somewhat blasphemously for a believer in Islam;
"We can't help being thirsty, moving toward the voice of water. Milk-drinkers draw close to the mother. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, shamans, everyone hears the intelligent sound and moves, with thirst, to meet it.32"

 

[Jake]

Getting back to my earlier point...

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
5. Buddhism: 376 million
6. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
7. Sikhism: 23 million
8. Juche: 19 million
9. Spiritism: 15 million
10. Judaism: 14 million
11. Baha'i: 7 million
12. Jainism: 4.2 million
13. Shinto: 4 million
14. Cao Dai: 4 million
15. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
16. Tenrikyo: 2 million
17. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
18. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
19. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
20. Scientology: 500 thousand

For every person who faithfully believes in one of those gods there are millions more who think that person's god is imaginary. Likewise, the faithful person believes everyone else's god is imaginary, usually without ever having looked into the other religions at all. How can one be so sure their god is real, and everyone else's is bullshit? Usually because they were raised in an environment where their god was presented as the one and only true god, and they never questioned it.

There is no evidence any of them are real. Think about it, if one of the many popular gods existed and was bestowing benefits on its followers, answering prayers and rewarding their faith it would be apparent to the rest of the world, whose gods are imaginary. Are any of these groups living under obvious divine intervention, separating themselves and their real god from all of the imaginary ones? Nope. They are all following their religious dogma, based solely on blind faith, believing they will be rewarded for it at some point. And yet, no evidence of any such rewards exist.

I'm glad to see the Christians taking on some of my other posts but no one has tackled this one, yet. I'd be curious to see a logical breakdown of my points, as they can't be attributed to an "atheist email", or other such assertions.

I anxiously await the objective response from the "confident christianity" blogspot.

 

[Jake]

You need to find better atheist material than that.

I'll worry about raising the bar when Christians raise theirs.

One of the tenets of Christianity is the inerrancy of the Bible, which is absurd on its face. Within its pages, God explains how we are to treat our slaves, selling one's daughter into slavery, a woman's role in society, and last but not least what we should do with adulterers and homosexuals - kill them. Good stuff, there.

Then there's the story of Noah's Ark. Apparently, every living species on the planet was at Noah's disposal, easily gathered and herded on the ark, which he and his family built by hand. Then, the entire Earth was covered by water - killing everyone and anyone, including babies - all because God was pissed off at his creation. We actually have 21st century scientists looking for the fucking thing, some even claiming they have found it.

Then we have the miracles, for which no evidence exists today. In Jesus' time, non-believers were won over by miracles of God's power and yet no such miracles occur today. Hell, no one has documented one since then. Sure, people love to attribute things to "God's will", but they are never events that can tangibly be attributed to supernatural intervention.

My mom was sick, she got better, God made her better. (Really?)

I prayed for direction, I got a job the next week, God answered my prayer. (Okie dokie)

These are the "miracles" of the days since the Bible. I can attribute anything to God using that criteria. My laptop worked when I turned it on today - praise the Lord!

The fact is, no Christian has offered any evidence to support their faith, short of blogs by other Christians attacking their critics. I have statistically broken down the 20 prominent religions of the world, showing the likelihood that any one is correct, and no one refutes it.

Let's see one shred of evidence that supports the validity of Christianity, that isn't based on blind faith. The number of people who buy it isn't validation, nor is the length of time it has been with us. To this day we have people who think black cats are bad luck, but that doesn't validate their superstition.

One piece of evidence. Christians claim their god is real and bristle at any assertions to the contrary, so let's see the evidence. One piece.

 

[Gatorubet]

I'm glad to see the Christians taking on some of my other posts but no one has tackled this one, yet. I'd be curious to see a logical breakdown of my points, as they can't be attributed to an "atheist email", or other such assertions.

I anxiously await the objective response from the "confident Christianity" blogspot.

Or "Waaaaaahhhh....I won't even apologize for posting absolute false crap I got from some e-mail, so I will ignore the showing of my ass and throw out the trump card question that is so tricksey hobbitish they will not be able to answer it....bwahahahaaaaa :rub hands: "One of the tenets of Christianity is the inerrancy of the Bible, which is absurd on its face."

Actually, you don't have to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible to be a Christian, and I do not think that inerrancy is generally required. It sure is a very minority view in my church. So until you show up with even a rudimentary working knowledge of the religions you despise, your mistake littered rants make you look silly. You just committed the functional equivalent of going on a rant that bashed the PAC-10 based upon your assertion that the Mountain West had the most BCSCG wins.

IOW, once the reader gets to that little nugget of ignorance, it is no longer necessary to read the rest of your thought pearls.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I'm glad to see the Christians taking on some of my other posts but no one has tackled this one, yet. I'd be curious to see a logical breakdown of my points, as they can't be attributed to an "atheist email", or other such assertions.

I anxiously await the objective response from the "confident christianity" blogspot.

I'm certainly not a Christian, and I've even advanced variants of the numbers argument and am inclined to agree with the general point you're making as to what those numbers establish. However, at least 3 of those religions purport to worship the same G-d (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and there may be more (I don't really know who or what a "spirtist" worships, etc.). That said, even considering all those together, there is a large portion of people - mostly those of "eastern philosophy" who believe something materially different and your general point remains asserted...

That said, citation to what man purports to know doesn't really establish much of anything. Man has believed any numbers of things over the years which are patently false by our standards today. The earth was flat, the stars fixed in the sky, revolving around us.. and so on. A polling of peoples from those times would not have offered any real "proof" as to whether or not there were planets beyond Jupiter.

So, for me - your question should be - given how man has decidedly different religious views (Citation to list), and if we accept that only one of these views can be correct and our salvation dependent on having picked (or been born into) the correct version, what is the point in worshiping a god who created a situation where the bulk of souls on earth will be damned for believing something by mistake? Especially when a lot of that seems to be cultural - ie Buddhism, Hinduism...

I've tried to become less hostile in my ways of saying these sorts of things, but people on this board are aware that I agree with you generally - that organized religion is largely hokum - but nothing you've done or argued has done anything to suggest there actually isn't a G-d. There's a difference between the two.